Please add a mode that doesn't require as much teamwork.

[RiyahArp]

Detect has problems with range and the cooldown. Like in Shatter, it was impossible to find a NIN unless you already saw them hide; the range was too small and the environments too large. And surprise, eh; the problem was even when you knew said ninja was doing that, you couldn't be prepared for stealth, because it rendered them untargetable. You can check behind pillars from a distance or just run away from obstructions. Hide was the gift that kept on giving, in other words.

[Wintersandman]

Detect has problems with range and the cooldown. Like in Shatter, it was impossible to find a NIN unless you already saw them hide; the range was too small and the environments too large. And surprise, eh; the problem was even when you knew said ninja was doing that, you couldn't be prepared for stealth, because it rendered them untargetable. You can check behind pillars from a distance or just run away from obstructions. Hide was the gift that kept on giving, in other words.

I honestly feel like 3.0 gave you a few blisters because as someone who played Nin. Yes there were times Detect was rendered useless but there were other abilities to lure them out. But also an experienced PvP'er knew how to bait/lure the ninja. If you knew the Ninja was also there it was as simple from keeping him going Stealth if you applied a DoT.

Moving to 4.0 eliminated a lot of strategy behind the modes.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Moving to 4.0 eliminated a lot of strategy behind the modes.

THIS. So much this.

[RiyahArp]

I honestly feel like 3.0 gave you a few blisters because as someone who played Nin. Yes there were times Detect was rendered useless but there were other abilities to lure them out.

yes, you could use point blank aoes to try and hit them, no they had the same issues too, like small range. The easiest way to deal with them was just to tell the alliance, and then leave the base in twos. I mentioned detect mostly because it's a good example that for what people liked in a mode, there were also things that were pretty bad in it.

[Divinemights]

It wound up hardening on primal to mael being first, twin being second, and flames being third. It was really bad, and I'm glad that mode is dead now.

Please, Malestorm is really weak in 24 men and so so in 72 men before the Garo event.

It was pretty even between 3 GC in 72 men and Flame/Adder > Malestorm in 24 men. It is until this expansion where you are getting botters chose flame or adder because of easy queue time that gave Malestorm players a false impression that they are dominating. Try Frontline now and you will see Malestorm is struggling

[Wintersandman]

Riyah, what was bad? Did you get jumped by ninjas? That was their purpose. They were meant to take out the stragglers. I have been on both sides of the coin and you don’t see me crying about how bad it was. I got outplayed. Simple as that. Now we just have crap.

[RiyahArp]

Please, Malestorm is really weak in 24 men and so so in 72 men before the Garo event.

Sigh. I'm not arguing this again. Look at Lodestone stats, and if you actually played shatter towards the end of 3.0, you saw it. They are struggling now because they all stopped farming shatter and its purely random who goes on at all.

Riyah, what was bad? Did you get jumped by ninjas? That was their purpose. They were meant to take out the stragglers. I have been on both sides of the coin and you don’t see me crying about how bad it was. I got outplayed. Simple as that. Now we just have crap.

I was a healer in it, so I didn't have many issues with NIN. My point is more if you love the better tactics of 3.0, you kind of have to realize they existed because counterplay was bad or nonexistent. Nin could take out stragglers only because stragglers as a whole were at a disadvantage in counterplaying it, the same way people at a disadvantage with sleep in frontlines, or stunlocks in feast.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Sigh. I'm not arguing this again. Look at Lodestone stats, and if you actually played shatter towards the end of 3.0, you saw it. They are struggling now because they all stopped farming shatter and its purely random who goes on at all.

So effectively, it really IS the skill of the players, and not the GC that makes the difference then? Otherwise Maelstrom would still be the "best" right now. . . It's like I was right all along. . .

I was a healer in it, so I didn't have many issues with NIN. My point is more if you love the better tactics of 3.0, you kind of have to realize they existed because counterplay was bad or nonexistent. Nin could take out stragglers only because stragglers as a whole were at a disadvantage in counterplaying it, the same way people at a disadvantage with sleep in frontlines, or stunlocks in feast.

CC and DR being universal was the counterplay for a lot of things. Relying on Sleep or stunlocks too much not only makes that strategy predictable, but it only worked so long before you made the player immune. Range is, and always was a counterplay to a melee, even if they had gap closers. Healers had Attunement, though even THAT had a workaround (Hawk's Eye) and wasn't a get out of jail free card if caught unaware/alone. There's also the fact that we weren't forced to choose crucial skills like Sprint or Purify over something else. EVERYONE could sprint. EVERYONE could Purify. And even if it had a long cooldown, fact is, you never had to choose between either one or any other beneficial PvP skills.

People see the button reduction and think "Oh they made it easier to pick up!" but they're missing a few important things:

• Everyone could sprint. It wasn't an optional skill.
• Everyone could Purify. Not much changed about Purify except that now it IS an optional skill that you have to consider over other things.
• PvP skills were upgradeable, and often worth it to do so. This is why there was PvP XP/ranks. They helped, but being low rank or having unupgraded skills weren't gamebreaking.
• Ranged didn't hit like melee, and even had a damage falloff at max ranges. They were still equally deadly, but didn't have nearly as much advantage as they do now.
• EVERYONE had several CC skills, most of which were quite sensible for the job that had it. In MCHs case, for having so many, they had shared cooldowns.
• Many skills that were deemed "useless" in PvE held VERY strong utility in PvP, such as Sleep, MNK's One Ilm Punch (removed buffs), binds in general
• Tanks were tanky. Healers were HEALERS. Yes, they could DPS, but it was low in potency and a far second to their primary role, which they excelled at.
• With access to the full PvE kit, and not a fixed set of abilities, however sensible or not, the individual skill of players really made a bigger difference then. This new system might promote more accessibility (perhaps as to encourage lower leveled players to get into it), but in a system where "anyone can be good", good players are still greater, and knowledge/understanding of the PvP system or the game mode still holds more weight.

[RiyahArp]

So effectively, it really IS the skill of the players, and not the GC that makes the difference then? Otherwise Maelstrom would still be the "best" right now. . . It's like I was right all along. . .

C'mon, you know Shatter is dead. Now that there's no real incentive to play or win at it, it's just that all the pvpers who packed Maelstrom just don't bother, not because it really was skill all along.

People see the button reduction and think "Oh they made it easier to pick up!" but they're missing a few important things:
Everyone could sprint. It wasn't an optional skill.
Everyone could Purify. Not much changed about Purify except that now it IS an optional skill that you have to consider over other things.
PvP skills were upgradeable, and often worth it to do so. This is why there was PvP XP/ranks. They helped, but being low rank or having unupgraded skills weren't gamebreaking.
Ranged didn't hit like melee, and even had a damage falloff at max ranges. They were still equally deadly, but didn't have nearly as much advantage as they do now.
EVERYONE had several CC skills, most of which were quite sensible for the job that had it. In MCHs case, for having so many, they had shared cooldowns.
Many skills that were deemed "useless" in PvE held VERY strong utility in PvP, such as Sleep, MNK's One Ilm Punch (removed buffs), binds in general
Tanks were tanky. Healers were HEALERS. Yes, they could DPS, but it was low in potency and a far second to their primary role, which they excelled at.
With access to the full PvE kit, and not a fixed set of abilities, however sensible or not, the individual skill of players really made a bigger difference then. This new system might promote more accessibility (perhaps as to encourage lower leveled players to get into it), but in a system where "anyone can be good", good players are still greater, and knowledge/understanding of the PvP system or the game mode still holds more weight.

As for the list, it honestly didn't really do as much as you think. Purify was just overwhelmed by all the CC, and barely useful in Feast if the DPS could manage to have excellent awareness and use it on the healer. Ranking up just meant you were gimped for a good month with lower cooldowns and less potency on some skills. The bard thing was like casters doing less on ice; it wasn't adding to skill, it was just a nerf since you didn't have zoning tools or even an indicator of distance unless you used plugins. I mean, we could go over the old days for hours. A lot of these tools you could really only use if you were pretty good, otherwise they'd be incredibly ineffective.

I'd rather honestly discuss fixes that won't up the complexity a lot. I'd rather straight healer nerfs or retooling than go back to stunlocks as a means to counter them.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'm pretty sure many people still didn't yet get their ADS mounts, nor were they a limited time thing, so the "incentive" as far as rewards go IS still there. But there's something newer, so people are flocking to that, of course.

I seem to also recall people saying that all the players who wanted to win went to Mael and turned off Freelancer, which, you could easily say by numbers there were bound to be skilled players there, yes? If those skilled players are off doing other things, and Maelstrom suddenly isn't doing so well, does that not just prove my point?

I mean, same thing applies to Rival Wings now. People say "red team always wins" but I've surprisingly LOST more on the Ravens than the Falcons, and certainly not for suddenly playing worse on one than the other. My ability to play well or win isn't affected by my team color at all. It never was. And it never was for anyone else. Though it should be noted - and I know people aren't going to want to hear this - that if the "red team always wins" and you're not on it when that happens, part of it can be because you've convinced yourself that that's true. The placebo effect is quite real, and more powerful subconsciously than you might think.