Is it time for relics to be the same ilevel as savage weapons?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

My opinion is this ... Raider's spend time and effort to raid .... relic weapons require time and effort ... why not make them equal? Just because raiders have to work with 7 other people doesn't automatically make it more difficult or time consuming. For the relic weapons, you either need to level your crafter's or spend millions of gil to get the item you need for the next step or rely on someone else to make it for you. Not to mention the materia or items needed to boost the stats.

I don't want one to be better than the other, I just would like to see SE give casual player's an option to get the best gear as well. Or people that just don't have the time to dedicate to raid 3-4 nights a week. Some people do have lives outside of the game.

Riders clear the hardest content this game offers. That, by its very definition, is more difficult. Making both the Savage tier and relic equal trivial one of the few rewards raiders get for clearing content. Now their weapon is entirely worthless since you can customize the stats on a relic, thus equal ilvl will always make it superior.

Why do you need the best? A ilvl 345 weapon right now is just plain overkill for all content that isn't Savage. A time based grind that requires little effort shouldn't reward the same weapon as clearing Neo ExDeath.

So, that's the argument. Skill vs. Time. Yoshi-P wanted both to be viable ways to get an endgame weapon. Tell me, what would be wrong with having a relic/anima weapon being on par with a relic weapon? Serious raiders would still gun for the raid weapon as it would be a lot quicker/easier to get. They wouldn't stop raiding just because relic/anima was available. You might lose some casual raiders, but outside of pugging is that really a problem? And odds are, those curious about raiding would still try raiding with their relic/anima weapon. What would be the harm in the relic/anima being the same level as a raid weapon?

Because it renders all Savage weapons to alt gear. What value does the DRG Spear have to me when even at a casual pace, I'll have a superior alternative in 2-3 weeks doing far easier content? Additionally, the tome weapons become utterly worthless. 1,000 Creation tomes for a weapon inferior in every way to its relic counterpart. Serious raiders wouldn't gun for the weapons since unless RNG is kind, they could be waiting weeks whereas relics everyone can do. Instead, you'll see them stop bothering with Savage faster.

[Nyxn607]

Riders clear the hardest content this game offers. That, by its very definition, is more difficult. Making both the Savage tier and relic equal trivial one of the few rewards raiders get for clearing content. Now their weapon is entirely worthless since you can customize the stats on a relic, thus equal ilvl will always make it superior.

Why do you need the best? A ilvl 345 weapon right now is just plain overkill for all content that isn't Savage. A time based grind that requires little effort shouldn't reward the same weapon as clearing Neo ExDeath.

Why shouldn't it though? Time and effort is time and effort. Someone who only gets an hour here and there to play that would like to raid, but just can't due to real life can't get the best gear. Why? Because raider's would be butt hurt? I understand that clearing the hardest content deserves an reward. Give them a nice shiny title or exclusive glamour gear, but don't limit the ilvl of a weapon just because they have the time to dedicate to the game. Anyone that can dedicate 7-8 hours a day to the game to learn content would be able to clear it eventually. Thousands of others would love to dedicate that much time, but have responsibility outside of the game or don't get to work from home.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why shouldn't it though? Time and effort is time and effort. Someone who only gets an hour here and there to play that would like to raid, but just can't due to real life can't get the best gear. Why? Because raider's would be butt hurt? I understand that clearing the hardest content deserves an reward. Give them a nice shiny title or exclusive glamour gear, but don't limit the ilvl of a weapon just because they have the time to dedicate to the game. Anyone that can dedicate 7-8 hours a day to the game to learn content would be able to clear it eventually. Thousands of others would love to dedicate that much time, but have responsibility outside of the game or don't get to work from home.

They do give raiders a reward: five higher ilvls on their weapons. What makes you entitled to the absolute best gear? Because you want it? Okay. I want to clear Ultimate, but presently have the group willing to put in that many hours. Real life getting in the way shouldn't be an excuse to hand everyone what is essentially a participation trophy. No offense, but saying raiders should just be happy with a title and glamour everyone will farm unsynced later comes across incredibly condescending. We're "butt hurt" because you want everything?

[Nyxn607]

We're "butt hurt" because you want everything?

First off ... I never said "I" want anything. We're "butt hurt" because you want everything? Your exact wording in case you forgot.
Second: I know my limitations in the game, I know I will never obtain the best gear. I am asking for a way for those (Not me) that do want the best gear, but can't dedicate the time to raiding to be able to obtain it another way.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

First off ... I never said "I" want anything. We're "butt hurt" because you want everything? Your exact wording in case you forgot.
Second: I know my limitations in the game, I know I will never obtain the best gear. I am asking for a way for those (Not me) that do want the best gear, but can't dedicate the time to raiding to be able to obtain it another way.

You in the general sense. Either way, I already addressed this point. Someone's lack of available time does not entitle them to all the same perks as someone who can set aside time to clear the hardest fights. I'll, again, reiterate, making the relic equivalent to Savage weapons invalidates the latter. With two weeks before Savage's releases, all the hardcore raiders will have their relics done since they won't have much else to do anyway. Therefore, the actual Savage weapons become little more than alt job upgrades just because someone who plays nothing but easy content wants everything. This doesn't even cover tomestone weapons would be absolutely worthless.

Simply put, if you don't have the time or desire to raid, ilvl 340 is your highest level. Nothing outside Savage comes remotely close to necessitating that high an ilvl anyway.

[Nyxn607]

Simply put, if you don't have the time or desire to raid, ilvl 340 is your highest level. Nothing outside Savage comes remotely close to necessitating that high an ilvl anyway.

I agree with this point. However what is wrong with allowing others to acquire similar gear at the same ilvl? Not the same exact gear mind you, but similar (different stats/looks come to mind) It won't affect how anyone plays the game. Raiders will still raid, casual's will still be casual. I should also mention that I was a hard core raider at one point in my gaming career. So I get that raiders want to feel accomplished ... I really do. I don't mind raiders getting exclusive looks or gear, but wanting the best ilvl gear kept to a small portion of the community is rather selfish. But then again we do live in a "its all about me society."

[HyoMinPark]

So I get that raiders want to feel accomplished ... I really do. I don't mind raiders getting exclusive looks or gear, but wanting the best ilvl gear kept to a small portion of the community is rather selfish. But then again we do live in a "its all about me society."

I want to point out the irony of saying this, but in the same breath saying that people who don’t raid are entitled to the best gear because “I want it”.

If people want the best gear in the game, then they should do the content that gives them the best gear in the game. If they can’t because of life, then, I’m sorry but that’s just the way it is. Doesn’t mean they are entitled to receive the best gear.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I agree with this point. However what is wrong with allowing others to acquire similar gear at the same ilvl? Not the same exact gear mind you, but similar (different stats/looks come to mind) It won't affect how anyone plays the game. Raiders will still raid, casual's will still be casual. I should also mention that I was a hard core raider at one point in my gaming career. So I get that raiders want to feel accomplished ... I really do. I don't mind raiders getting exclusive looks or gear, but wanting the best ilvl gear kept to a small portion of the community is rather selfish. But then again we do live in a "its all about me society."

Read my previous posts. I really cannot make this any clearer. Relics being the equivalent ilvl of Savage weapons invalidates all other forms of progression. Had relics released with Stormblood's launch, everyone would have access to the best weapon before any other gear piece. In fact, you cannot even upgrade tomestone in even numbered patches without clearing floors two and three. And like I already said above, the creation tomestone weapons are completely worthless.

Finally, I will defer to Hyomin's post. You're accusing raiders of being selfish yet think it isn't selfish to essentially say "I don't have the time raid like you do, but I still want the best stuff." And no, not you specifically.

[Sebazy]

However what is wrong with allowing others to acquire similar gear at the same ilvl?

Because this is a game of vertical progression.

If you remove the carrot, what are you left with? The reward needs to justify the means to get it. Want the big boy pants weapons? You'd better do the big boy pants content.

Endless coil is an extreme but relevant example of this, my own group is very likely capable of clearing it, as is my previous group from Gordias/Midas, in both cases, motivation has been the key stumbling block with my current bunch being unwilling to even dip their toes.

Remove the desire for those Savage weapons and you'll do the same to a lot of casual/midcore groups, which will potentially lead to another big drop in raid content interaction rates amongst the player base as a whole (The very reason we've got these comparatively easy raids in the first place).

By comparison, relic weapons are a pure and simple time sink with very little challenge beyond 'Can you afford this mat?' or 'Can you stay awake?'. They are very different things and as such, offer very different rewards. I do think it'd be nice to have them attaining parity during odd numbered patches (aka mid content cycle) to spread content out a little tho.

[Shouko]

Why shouldn't it though? Time and effort is time and effort. Someone who only gets an hour here and there to play that would like to raid, but just can't due to real life can't get the best gear. Why? Because raider's would be butt hurt? I understand that clearing the hardest content deserves an reward. Give them a nice shiny title or exclusive glamour gear, but don't limit the ilvl of a weapon just because they have the time to dedicate to the game. Anyone that can dedicate 7-8 hours a day to the game to learn content would be able to clear it eventually. Thousands of others would love to dedicate that much time, but have responsibility outside of the game or don't get to work from home.

I just want to point out that people often forget that MMO's are meant to be literal time sinks, grindfests, not speed run, things handed to you because you played the game better than someone else. I come from a background of gaming for about 30-35 years of my life and can honestly say that the times where you used a guide to get past something was only if you were stuck, you didn't get things handed to you and you didn't pay to progress, you put in the hours to get 100% on a game and as a reward you got a skin, character, whatever. These days it's like everyone wants things the easy way instead of putting effort into them. If you don't have time to play a MMO then it's typically not a game you should be playing. If you want the reward for the hardest content then you need to put in the effort to get it.

I'm not trying to sound elitist or claim one way is better than the other but imo the reward should be fitting of the amount of energy you put into it. If you don't have a lot of time to play, I know I sure don't, I don't expect to just grind out a weapon that's equal to the hardest content in the game. Then again I don't think it matters in this game as the gear is replaced so fast anyhow before you know it savage lvl gear is going to be replaced by dungeon gear in the next expansion or even the next big raid to come out.

This is initially the problem with gear elevator type games where you're always shedding gear in lieu for the next piece. If this were XI then maybe people might have a point and because the gear lasts longer in XI than it does in XIV it would be more appealing to have a relic that lasts the while.

I probably repeated myself a few times and kinda incoherent due to being tired but felt that I needed to get that out, before going to bed.