Is it time for relics to be the same ilevel as savage weapons?

[Sebazy]

Games far harder than a lot of other MMOs according to a lot of people in this thread even, and you wont admit that the game isn't as easy as you continue to insist it is.

Is it really though? I'll hold my hands up and admit I've had a few wipes here and there on large trash pulls, some were my fault, some were someone elses. However, the only time I've ever wiped to a roulette Dungeon Boss outside of Pharos Sirius and Amdapor Keep circa 2.0-2.1 would be on Baelsar's Wall, usually due to the rest of the group ignoring the collar on me (My only post in the bad duty finder experiences here was of a monk ignoring nails+collar, then blaming me for us wiping when I was dead 'because I wasn't healing' for example).

Probably my most defining memory of how trivial most dungeon bosses are would be in Gubal HM, I DC'd fairly late on Strix, came back right as the group wiped due to no heals and proceeded to solo the last 20% or so myself.

Compared to the horrifying trains, wall agro and nightmare corpse recoveries I saw in MMOs of old such as Everquest and FFXI or even WoW in it's 'everything has to be CC'd or your tank goes splat phase'. Then yes, FFXIV's dungeons are a comparative cake walk. It wasn't always that way, Brayflox and Tam-tara in beta/prerelease and Amdapor Keep in early 2.0 plus pre nerf Pharos Sirius were actually pretty challenging. It's very well documented that SE lost their nerve over the backlash regarding Pharos Sirius.

Have you done much O3S yet? That's a pretty significant step up from O1S-O2S and I suspect it might be a bit of an eye opener for you assuming you didn't raid in ARR/HW.

[Mikey_R]

I understand that, however that's not what I'm arguing against.

This is what I'm arguing against.

...

"People don't need to have the best gear in the game, they just want to get the best gear they can, and that's why the relic should be at least tied with the best weapon in the game."

I do see where you are coming from now and just to make my views on the subject known, whether the relic matches savage or is always just under, either is fine with me. At the end of an expansion it should match, however, only after savage has been released for a while, like the way it was done in HW. However, I will add the caveat that Ultimate weapons should still beat out both savage and relic weapons, ideally more than the 40 points from an extra materia meld, but it should be better.

[HoodRat]

I do see where you are coming from now and just to make my views on the subject known, whether the relic matches savage or is always just under, either is fine with me. At the end of an expansion it should match, however, only after savage has been released for a while, like the way it was done in HW. However, I will add the caveat that Ultimate weapons should still beat out both savage and relic weapons, ideally more than the 40 points from an extra materia meld, but it should be better.

I'd be fine with that, I have liked the look of the past relics so I'm looking forward to the new one. I wonder how it's going to work too, since I believe we're getting armor as well as a weapon.

[Ayer2015]

I guarantee a lot more people would be learning/clearing shinryu ex if we had the relic weapons already.

Not sure I agree with that. I think a lot of people are just sick of always doing the same type of content at this point. If you have no intention of running savage, which you don't need the Shin EX weapon for anyway, what the point of doing it?
At least, that's where I'm at with this game now. Its starting to feel very stale... perhaps Eureka will change that.

[Xerek]

Of course I'm sure we all remember the train wreck before SB, where anima weapons were BIS for just a couple of days before the lottery Diadem 2.0 weapons hit. That was a raging...*ahem*...storm.

This is an interesting thread that seems to have quickly degenerated into a raider vs. casual debate. The question being, should putting more time and effort into casual content produce a weapon on-par with less effort put into hardcore content? That's what it comes down to, really. Yes, the relic/anima is shiny for glam purposes, but Yoshi-P stated the relic was always meant as an alternative to get a high-end weapon. Taking that into account, then yes, the two should be on par. How do you get to that big weapon? A bit of time and effort overcoming hardcore content. It's the quickest way. But if you are unable/unwilling to do that, then the relic/anima is an alternative. Easier content, but be prepared to grind your life away. And let's be honest, anyone who ground out umbrites pre-nerf ground their life away (120-160 ARF runs *shudders*).

So, that's the argument. Skill vs. Time. Yoshi-P wanted both to be viable ways to get an endgame weapon. Tell me, what would be wrong with having a relic/anima weapon being on par with a relic weapon? Serious raiders would still gun for the raid weapon as it would be a lot quicker/easier to get. They wouldn't stop raiding just because relic/anima was available. You might lose some casual raiders, but outside of pugging is that really a problem? And odds are, those curious about raiding would still try raiding with their relic/anima weapon. What would be the harm in the relic/anima being the same level as a raid weapon?

[Nyxn607]

My opinion is this ... Raider's spend time and effort to raid .... relic weapons require time and effort ... why not make them equal? Just because raiders have to work with 7 other people doesn't automatically make it more difficult or time consuming. For the relic weapons, you either need to level your crafter's or spend millions of gil to get the item you need for the next step or rely on someone else to make it for you. Not to mention the materia or items needed to boost the stats.

I don't want one to be better than the other, I just would like to see SE give casual player's an option to get the best gear as well. Or people that just don't have the time to dedicate to raid 3-4 nights a week. Some people do have lives outside of the game.

[Nihility]

The dev response to this before almost made it sound like relics are done with an eureka will be some sort of merit system instead

[Bourne_Endeavor]

My opinion is this ... Raider's spend time and effort to raid .... relic weapons require time and effort ... why not make them equal? Just because raiders have to work with 7 other people doesn't automatically make it more difficult or time consuming. For the relic weapons, you either need to level your crafter's or spend millions of gil to get the item you need for the next step or rely on someone else to make it for you. Not to mention the materia or items needed to boost the stats.

I don't want one to be better than the other, I just would like to see SE give casual player's an option to get the best gear as well. Or people that just don't have the time to dedicate to raid 3-4 nights a week. Some people do have lives outside of the game.

Riders clear the hardest content this game offers. That, by its very definition, is more difficult. Making both the Savage tier and relic equal trivial one of the few rewards raiders get for clearing content. Now their weapon is entirely worthless since you can customize the stats on a relic, thus equal ilvl will always make it superior.

Why do you need the best? A ilvl 345 weapon right now is just plain overkill for all content that isn't Savage. A time based grind that requires little effort shouldn't reward the same weapon as clearing Neo ExDeath.

So, that's the argument. Skill vs. Time. Yoshi-P wanted both to be viable ways to get an endgame weapon. Tell me, what would be wrong with having a relic/anima weapon being on par with a relic weapon? Serious raiders would still gun for the raid weapon as it would be a lot quicker/easier to get. They wouldn't stop raiding just because relic/anima was available. You might lose some casual raiders, but outside of pugging is that really a problem? And odds are, those curious about raiding would still try raiding with their relic/anima weapon. What would be the harm in the relic/anima being the same level as a raid weapon?

Because it renders all Savage weapons to alt gear. What value does the DRG Spear have to me when even at a casual pace, I'll have a superior alternative in 2-3 weeks doing far easier content? Additionally, the tome weapons become utterly worthless. 1,000 Creation tomes for a weapon inferior in every way to its relic counterpart. Serious raiders wouldn't gun for the weapons since unless RNG is kind, they could be waiting weeks whereas relics everyone can do. Instead, you'll see them stop bothering with Savage faster.

[Nyxn607]

Riders clear the hardest content this game offers. That, by its very definition, is more difficult. Making both the Savage tier and relic equal trivial one of the few rewards raiders get for clearing content. Now their weapon is entirely worthless since you can customize the stats on a relic, thus equal ilvl will always make it superior.

Why do you need the best? A ilvl 345 weapon right now is just plain overkill for all content that isn't Savage. A time based grind that requires little effort shouldn't reward the same weapon as clearing Neo ExDeath.

Why shouldn't it though? Time and effort is time and effort. Someone who only gets an hour here and there to play that would like to raid, but just can't due to real life can't get the best gear. Why? Because raider's would be butt hurt? I understand that clearing the hardest content deserves an reward. Give them a nice shiny title or exclusive glamour gear, but don't limit the ilvl of a weapon just because they have the time to dedicate to the game. Anyone that can dedicate 7-8 hours a day to the game to learn content would be able to clear it eventually. Thousands of others would love to dedicate that much time, but have responsibility outside of the game or don't get to work from home.

[HyoMinPark]

Tell me, what would be wrong with having a relic/anima weapon being on par with a Savage* weapon? Serious raiders would still gun for the raid weapon as it would be a lot quicker/easier to get. They wouldn't stop raiding just because relic/anima was available. You might lose some casual raiders, but outside of pugging is that really a problem? And odds are, those curious about raiding would still try raiding with their relic/anima weapon. What would be the harm in the relic/anima being the same level as a raid weapon?

Because it would immediately invalidate Savage weapons the moment a tier drops. Think about if we’d had relics already for Stormblood—if they had been released at the same time as the Savage tier, there would be zero use for the i345 Genji weapons when raiders would already have an i345 relic outside of maybe glamour.

I can certainly compromise with perhaps allowing the relics to “catch up” to the Savage weapons in catch-up patches—so like in 4.1, they would hit i345 where as before, maybe they capped out at i340. That would be fine, and that’s what they all do in the end anyways. But keeping them consistently on-par with Savage weapons just invalidates the Savage weapons; why put them in the game at that point?

The raiders can and will grind out the relics for their mains and use them for a tier. It would actually be faster for statics to grind out relics rather than it would be for them to all receive Savage drops, because unless RNG is feeling really, really nice, you’re looking at 8 weeks before everyone in a static has their weapon. Why wait 8 when you can wait 1 and everyone have a relic instead?

Why shouldn't it though? Time and effort is time and effort. Someone who only gets an hour here and there to play that would like to raid, but just can't due to real life can't get the best gear. Why? Because raider's would be butt hurt? I understand that clearing the hardest content deserves an reward. Give them a nice shiny title or exclusive glamour gear, but don't limit the ilvl of a weapon just because they have the time to dedicate to the game. Anyone that can dedicate 7-8 hours a day to the game to learn content would be able to clear it eventually. Thousands of others would love to dedicate that much time, but have responsibility outside of the game or don't get to work from home.

I’m not trying to sound rude, but players that aren’t doing the hardest content offered in this game do not need the best gear. If players want the best gear, then they should try for Savage. If they don’t want to—or if they can’t due to real life—well, not to sound callous or anything, but that doesn’t mean they should just get the best gear handed to them because “I want it”. I’m sorry if someone that wants to raid doesn’t have the allotted time to raid because real-life gets in the way, really I am. But that doesn’t mean that the game should just hand them the best gear because, again, “I want it”.

The reward Savage players get is Savage gear with better secondaries (sometimes), and a Savage weapon with 5 extra ilvls. But this thread is about taking that ilvl difference away from them, invalidating basically any weapons that aren’t relics, and then you’re asking that raiders be happy with “a title or exclusive glamour”—which people would probably complain about also wanting next anyways.