Rival wings consolidated feedback

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I too have made myself a bit of a high threat now, ranging Chasers or complicating their targeting by getting in close. I can't stress how important it actually is to have ground forces to help against enemy mechs, but a good amount of awareness and active, high offense is just as important.

I think it would be great if they added the Gobwalker as a vehicle to use. A support vehicle that stuns, pulls people, does okay demand, higher mobility, and easy to destroy(15-20kHP?). For maybe 25 CE and able to have 4 in the battlefield.

This is a great idea!

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Double posting to share something from a reddit conversation regarding healers in RW, and how they're just a bit overtuned:

I've been noting that healers are just a bit overtuned for some time now. Bear with me on this one:

MCH Shots with ammo: 1250, 1500, 1750 for a total of 4500
DRG Wheeling Thrust Combo (JUST the combo): 500, 1000, 1250, 1250 for a total of 4000
SAM Meikyo spam (to build to Midare): 1250, 1650*, 1650 for a total of 4550 (1650 is implying you applied Yukikaze's 10% damage up on the enemy first).

WHM (for example)
Cure I: 2500, Cure II: 5000, Regen: 1500 every 3 sec for 15 sec (5 ticks)

Cure I more than outheals any single hit in a combo, and Cure II easily outheals a full combo. This would be hell for any job without a notable burst like MCH. At best, I can proc a Heated Clean Shot, apply Wildfire then "burst" with Stun Gun (1000), BTE (2000), then the HCS (1750), with the WF exploding for 2000 (rounded up) for a total of 6750. . . One Cure II and a Regen applied would just wave that off with a combined 6500 heal. And that's raw. Apply a Protect and that 20% less. Apply a Benison and that's mostly just absorbed. Safeguard is another 25% less. THEN there's still the 1500 Assize heal and Benediction in a pinch.

And that's just in a one on one. I've seen WHMs survive a 4 on 1 assault from a decent mix of other jobs. . . TFW healers are better tanks than tanks are in PvP now :/

As an addendum, this is all before the Soaring buff too.

[RiyahArp]

Here are some observations.

-The mode is very busy and it's nice, but I worry about long term appeal since there is no real randomness. You go to mid, then you do the arms race of towers, then you either stall out in a stalemate and win on time, or you get the core due to the other team not playing well. There are no random factors in the match which can add interest. Everything is in the same place and acts the same way.
-There should be a colored box or outline in the alliance list for each player in a mech, to single them out. You don't need it in party, as you can see their HP, but in the alliance list you can't.
-Does this mode scale down? What happens when interest subsides in it? Can it be done with 24 players?
-Mammets should not fight other mammets, it lets you ignore them too easily.
-BIG issues is that it is massively overbalanced for ranged jobs, namely SMN and BRD, that have mobility but no cast times. Many matches have them as the majority of DPS, along with RDM which is similar.

It's a fun mode overall, and the map is one of the best designed in the game.

[Stormfur]

I think there is going to be another machine that is released after people get used to Rival Wings a bit more. It was from Alexander but I don't recall the name. I remember reading about it in one of the interviews though.

As far as feedback goes, I also think the matches last too long.

Overall it's really a fun mode -- I didn't like it at first because I had no idea what I was doing, and I hate feeling that way. But it grew on me! Now we just need to be able to get these gobbie machines as mounts and all will be right with the world.

[Rufalus]

Feeling positive atm so I want to say some positive things. For the large amount of elements in this mode I think it's very impressive that there aren't any big balance issues. Now that people are used to the game and formulating strategies, the matches seem to flow quite well and I have been seeing the core destroyed within the time limit more often than not. All previous pvp modes were highly criticised so I can't fault S-E for trying something completely different. Who would have thought we'd ever get a mode that let us play as Brute Justice. Got to also appreciate the map design having a lot of strategic opportunities.

[Skeks]

Absolutely love the look and feel of this game mode. I feel the mechs are a good switch up, and having constant objectives means your never just sitting around waiting for an opening. The only issue, as some have brought up already, is that the "Soaring" buff reaaaallly brings the preexisting issue of healers being worth more than dps or tanks to the center of a match. Every match I have played so far, the winning team has been the one with more healers. A healer already out values dps or tank roles in normal pvp, but the problem seems to grow exponentially when those values are multiplied.

[Bernkastelx]

Ranged dps have always been the go to dps for big scale pvp due to their mobility/damage and the simple fact when you move irrationally you can cancel out some melee dps gcds cause of server lag. Also I find it very cute they removed most of melee dps stuns and silences but you let bard keep bind on a ranged constantly moving class top balance right there. I didn't have a problem with healing in the old pvp system because as a monk or w/e melee dps class I could at least manage my cds wait for them to be half stun and burst. I don't have that anymore so whenever I see a healer its a 3-5 min prolonged battle where I lose at the end even with 2-3 other dps its ridiculous. Overall the mode is nice with some minor flaws but the problem is once again SE has shown they no absolute clue how to handle balancing around their poor pvp system.

[Fyce]

• Time of a match: 20mn is fine... but it's often the actual duration of the game itself. I have more and more games where people simply can't destroy a core, so everyone plays the waiting game. It's mainly because defending a base is too easy, thanks to the bottom lane being awful, steam turrets being overpowered and mammets pretty useless. More on these below. But yeah, the point is that the match's flow is completly out of balance. The first phase of destroying towers is way too quick, while destroying the core is way too long.
• Map design: There's one major flaw with the map. The bottom lane is objectively worse than the upper lane when it comes to getting to the enemy's core. There is a ramp in the bottom line making it extremely difficult to get up there, while the top lane is already at the correct level. The height difference is completly preventing any mecha from not getting destroyed by the steam turrets. This means that whoever controls the top lane has a major advantage.
• Ceruleum tanks: Competing against the enemies to get them is a thing. But competing against our own alliance to be the first to grab them for our personal party is bad. Like, the feeling is terrible. You feel like robbing or getting robbed by your allies. It's bad. Anyone getting a tank should give all parties 2 points, no matter which party gets the tank. If a party wants some Ceruleum, they should start killing mammet and that's it.
• Getting mechs: Currently, the player in the team who gets the first mech can completly prevent anyone else from the party to get one if there's enough ceruleum for that player to constantly get one as soon as they spawn. It's a bit lame.
• Towers: they should do something to enemy players. Simply making people more tanky is not a big enough threat to make defending a doable thing. So, the area of effect should also either deal a little bit of damage to every enemy inside (like 500 to 1000 per tick. Maybe increase over time?), or they should have a healing debuff on them, making them not being able to be healed, or just a bit. People shoudn't be able to rush a turret and kill it 2mn after the match started.
• Mammets: The timer on the mammets prevents any snowball effect, which means that helping pushing with mammets is extremely underwheming. Besides, the fact that they won't go to their target Tower or Core when in range while an enemy mammet is near is completly nuts. A mammet three meters away from a tower will prefer attacking another mammet rather than going for the tower. This again makes helping mammet almost completly worthless. Mammets should definitly rush to a tower once they enter its circular area (where the buff is).
• Cruise Chasers: They are okayish, but people are starting to know how to counter them, which is basically "stay under it and avoir the Laser X Sword". A single foot player can take a Cruise Chaseralone by simply doing that. So, I'm not sure where do they fit in the meta? They are good to destroy other machinas, but not tough enough to endure being under fire long enough to destroy any "protected" machina.. so yeah.
• Oppressors: They are one-trick ponies. They do only one thing. Sure, they do it well, but how boy how boring it is to play them. You are basically walking in a super slow mech and are completly worthless until you reach your destination... And even then, you'll probably get obliterated on the way or only be able to drop one or two missiles. This is not a rewarding experience at all. That feeling of being completly useless for 90% of the time where you're controling one is way too strong. My suggestion would be to give them a skill which is able to deal quite a lot of damage to mammets so you still have something to do while on your way, and aren't completly useless in case of you suddenly are incapable of reaching your target (basically when you are defending from an enemy push).
• Brute Justice: I'm still not really sure about them. They seem okay but maybe a little bit too resilient. They shouldn't be something people let their tower get destroyed for. At this moment, having a Brute Justice up is almost better than having a tower. 125k HP should be enough.
• Steam canons: there are way too powerful while also having a quick fire rate and being "free" to use. They either need to be less powerful, or they need to cost some Ceruleum to be activated for a while (with an ammo count, for example?). It's definitly not something fun to play against. Players who reach a core should feel rewarded. Sure, they should feel threatened for being in the enemy's base, but not to the point of getting completly obliterated. Especially when coming from the bottom lane.

[Cidel]

Time of a match: The first phase of destroying towers is way too quick, while destroying the core is way too long.

This really does seem to be the case. But I also think that might be their intention. They want people to feel like just because their core is vulnerable and the other team still has a tower or 2- that coming from behind and winning is still a possibility; that seems to be a big thing for their PvP designers.

Map design: There's one major flaw with the map...

I guess to add to this is a little nitpick I have: Raven's side has to approach the middle basement (with the tanks) at a noticeable angle compared to the Falcon's side, who can run directly to it from mid. It feels like that allows Falcons to get there a precious second or 2 quicker since it's a head-on run from the top. Not sure why the map designers felt the need to make the cave entrances unequal.Maybe other people are seeing something I'm not design-wise.

Ceruleum tanks: Competing against the enemies to get them is a thing. But competing against our own alliance to be the first to grab them for our personal party is bad.

I think that was the intended trade-off for the tanks. Otherwise, people would camp the cave the entire match and just accrue alliance CE the whole match; that's what the generator is for. I suppose the idea was to either leave when you get enough for your party to summon a mech or communicate something so it doesn't feel like a competition amongst your alliance (communicate in a Frontlines match? I know, the horror, right?).

Getting mechs: Currently, the player in the team who gets the first mech can completly prevent anyone else from the party to get one if there's enough ceruleum for that player to constantly get one as soon as they spawn.

Yeah, I see this as a problem as well. Luckily, most parties I've been in can agree on who should pilot or say nothing. I've also had parties where nobody is going into a mech (I'm mostly a healer, so I won't under normal circumstances). The only way to avoid a single player mech-hoarder unfortunately seems to be camping the mechanism when you see them low on health. Maybe in the future they can give a temporary debuff after being knocked-out in a mech that does not allow you to pick another until it has worn-off.

Towers: People shoudn't be able to rush a turret and kill it 2mn after the match started.

I don't have much of an opinion on what to do with towers, but I can honestly say I have yet to see a "2 minute zerg-rush/kill tower" in the 30-ish games I've played. I feel like if you let that happen you either have a team full of the worst tunnel-visioners/ map ignorers or something is seriously wrong with majority of your team and foreshadows a magnificent loss.

Mammets: A mammet three meters away from a tower will prefer attacking another mammet rather than going for the tower. This again makes helping mammet almost completly worthless. Mammets should definitly rush to a tower once they enter its circular area (where the buff is).

Yes, Mammets have this weird uselessness to them, but I'm wondering if they're more intended to be CE-fodder for the other team rather than of any help to their own team. Someone brought up Mammets being in the way of enemy target-tabbing, which almost sounds like an intended nuisance. I don't care much about them right now, but do people feel like they need to have more impact?

Cruise Chasers: People are starting to know how to counter them... basically "stay under it and avoir the Laser X Sword". A single foot player can take a Cruise Chaseralone by simply doing that.

Working as intended, I'd think. I don't think Cruise Chasers are meant to wreck havoc so much as they are meant to advance stalemates and be the glass cannon answer to other Mechs. Players on foot need to be on the lookout for players attacking your team's Chasers, so no, Chasers aren't some 1-man army; they should be sticking with either other mechs or players on foot. This is why I say players not in mechs are more important than people make them out to be (but smart mech usage still wins games).

Oppressors: They are one-trick ponies. They do only one thing. Sure, they do it well, but how boy how boring it is to play them. You are basically walking in a super slow mech and are completly worthless until you reach your destination...

That's the thing, this mech is about as fun to do as running around picking up ceruleum tanks, but is just as vital in the bigger picture. I'll never understand why some people will pick this thing as the alliance's 1st mech in the battlefield without knowing if there are any Chasers otw or communicating their intentions. But it's the go-to thing for wrecking towers and the core. These mechs need to be picked-up by meticulous and team-oriented players- and they seldom do. "It's a boring job but somebody's gotta do it."

I don't think they can give it much more with the sole intention of being "not boring" when it's not out to fulfill it's purpose. If this thing could mow through mammets it needs to not get CE per kill, or this thing will be a non-stop generator of easy CE for itself.

Brute Justice: I'm still not really sure about them.

Me neither. When you're up against one with little help they feel overpowered as heck (intended, I'm sure). But if you have more than one Chaser alternating running-in with the instant-kick skill, the Brute is limited in what it can do at point-blank range without back-up. The skill of the player in it will make or break a match. I've seen Brutes sit there and eat punishment while spamming everything they have with no particular strategy and go down in less than a minute by focused teams. Others have been played more conservatively and become a menace for good chunks of a match.

Steam canons: there are way too powerful while also having a quick fire rate and being "free" to use.

Oh god, I agree.I get that they are meant to be a strong last line of defense, but the rate of fire seems too quick. I'd trade a bigger AoE marker for an extra 2 or 3 seconds in between rounds. I don't see the devs nerfing this turret too much though, since I'm willing to bet they'd rather let players have a fighting chance if they're under attack in their base rather than everyone sit there and assume they've lost. I just don't think many people know the way to deal with turrets (have people/Chasers rush up to it and hit them in there fast) and want to ignore players in them but get upset when they find out that's not necessarily a good idea.

Good feedback though.

[ImagiNation]

Mid would be more exciting like if it had Refurbisher. Also spent all my tp on Dragoon on a healer and they where still alive. Would like a real balance patch or explanation why they make these decisions.