With all this DRK feedback, can we get Scourge back please?

[Azerhan]

What if they added Scourges DoT effect to DA DP. DP 150 potency to all enemies in a cone before you +blind 15s. DA potency 200 + DoT of 40 for 30s. (600 potency for half MP isn't bad at all and could be used for single target) the DoT could have fall off if necessary for balance.

I would like the DRK becomes more original.
For exemple, make Scourge back, but instead of the classical dot, make this skill like: every tick of dmg (not a lot), bring back the same amount of mana, or something like that.
A new way to recover mana, and so, make more damages. I think that could make the DRK very very more interresting and the equivalent of the others tanks.

[Jukebox12]

Both blood spilled and skin should be on off as a 3 sec cd

[Wintersandman]

SE needed to consolidate DoT's due to raid bosses only being able to handle 60 debuffs on the target. Which is why we saw removal of DoT's across the board. I can tell you that as a SMN in VA or even Diadem it was incredibly frustrating to only get Bio up as Bio 2 and Miasma wouldn't get registered due to the cap and a SMN using Fester with 1 dot is just ..... While I don't care if the animation comes back the DoT removal is my biggest concern.

DRG, MNK, NIN, SMN, SCH, WHM, and War all saw the same removal of DoT's as DRK did. And since Fracture was a cross skill PLD did as well.

[Aana]

SE needed to consolidate DoT's due to raid bosses only being able to handle 60 debuffs on the target. Which is why we saw removal of DoT's across the board. I can tell you that as a SMN in VA or even Diadem it was incredibly frustrating to only get Bio up as Bio 2 and Miasma wouldn't get registered due to the cap and a SMN using Fester with 1 dot is just ..... While I don't care if the animation comes back the DoT removal is my biggest concern.

DRG, MNK, NIN, SMN, SCH, WHM, and War all saw the same removal of DoT's as DRK did. And since Fracture was a cross skill PLD did as well.

This post really deserves more attention. There's more going on than just taking your toys away when se makes decisions like this. They cleaned house on dots for a VERY good reason across the board. Bringing back dots literally isn't good for the game on a technical level. Never mind 1 hit dot maintenance is terribly bland gameplay and other reasons.

[Crater]

This post really deserves more attention. There's more going on than just taking your toys away when se makes decisions like this. They cleaned house on dots for a VERY good reason across the board.

Incredibly, the game did not fall apart and they didn't need to drop another Dalamud on it when SE reintroduced Miasma II into Scholar rotations.

SE deciding to get rid of DoTs "across the board" was not some wise, sage decision that was made after very carefully considering every single repercussion and determining that there was just no other way forward. It was a sweeping, heavy-handed "Get rid of ALL X" blunder that created at least as many problems as it solved, because they didn't think it through, and they didn't consider that not all of those DoTs were of equal importance to every class they were taken away from.

Scourge was not Aero, Combust, or Bio; weak DoTs that produce less (or essential equal) damage to the filler direct-damage attacks that healers have. It wasn't Fracture; a skill that was used to manipulate your GCD order more than it was used for its damage; or even a Mutilate; a skill that needed to tick for 18-21+ seconds and avoid replacing a combo finisher before it became worthwhile to use.

Not all DoTs are equal, not all DoTs contribute equally to class performance and playstyle. Scourge, Touch of Death, and Lead Shot were all extremely valuable to their respective classes and should not have been thrown away in some overreaching blanket DoT ban without being given substantial compensatory buffs and large class redesigns to mitigate that damage.

Machinist got substantial buffs and a total class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Lead Shot - now Machinist is in a very good place.
Monk did not get substantial buffs or a class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Touch of Death - now Monk is in the dumpster.

Dark Knight got more nerfs than buffs, and a stripped down version of its former toolkit rather than a class overhaul. Two guesses where it is right now. Actually, no, I don't trust you to get that one right: It's in the dumpster, right alongside MNK, SAM, and BLM.

[Aana]

Incredibly, the game did not fall apart and they didn't need to drop another Dalamud on it when SE reintroduced Miasma II into Scholar rotations.

SE deciding to get rid of DoTs "across the board" was not some wise, sage decision that was made after very carefully considering every single repercussion and determining that there was just no other way forward. It was a sweeping, heavy-handed "Get rid of ALL X" blunder that created at least as many problems as it solved, because they didn't think it through, and they didn't consider that not all of those DoTs were of equal importance to every class they were taken away from.

Scourge was not Aero, Combust, or Bio; weak DoTs that produce less (or essential equal) damage to the filler direct-damage attacks that healers have. It wasn't Fracture; a skill that was used to manipulate your GCD order more than it was used for its damage; or even a Mutilate; a skill that needed to tick for 18-21+ seconds and avoid replacing a combo finisher before it became worthwhile to use.

Not all DoTs are equal, not all DoTs contribute equally to class performance and playstyle. Scourge, Touch of Death, and Lead Shot were all extremely valuable to their respective classes and should not have been thrown away in some overreaching blanket DoT ban without being given substantial compensatory buffs and large class redesigns to mitigate that damage.

Machinist got substantial buffs and a total class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Lead Shot - now Machinist is in a very good place.
Monk did not get substantial buffs or a class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Touch of Death - now Monk is in the dumpster.

Dark Knight got more nerfs than buffs, and a stripped down version of its former toolkit rather than a class overhaul. Two guesses where it is right now. Actually, no, I don't trust you to get that one right: It's in the dumpster, right alongside MNK, SAM, and BLM.

They removed non combo dots. You can make the exact same argument for phlebotomize. It was the single biggest potency gcd on the class whos only purpose is to deal damage. Scourge is the exact same thing as fracture, but because fracture had shit potency and scourge didn't it's somehow God's gift to tanks. Combo oriented classes that had 1 bitton, apply 30 sec dot got killed. Its a core part of drk? At least fracture was used on 3 different jobs strategically to manipulate the rotation. Thats more engaging than scourge ever was.

The only reason people want scourgr back is because it looked cool. If damage is your primary concern there is no reason it needs to be through a 1 button gcd on a combo class.

1 dot won't kill the game? Let's see how long it takes SMN to notice getting cred in eureka to make their relics is harder on dot classes in open world trying to grind out the best weapon in the tier. 5, 4, 3, 2,....

Scourge is a flat skill that provides damage in the most passive way possible. That's not iconic for a class known for its a pm. You like the animation? Drgs miss their poledance too.

Scourge objectively offered nothing but a damage boost. If se wants you to do more damage they would just type a different number in any number of potency boxes. It's the exact same as fracture and phleb. Nothing iconic. Nothing job specific. Just dots to make smns cry in open world content.

[Chrono_Rising]

They removed non combo dots. You can make the exact same argument for phlebotomize. It was the single biggest potency gcd on the class whos only purpose is to deal damage. Scourge is the exact same thing as fracture, but because fracture had shit potency and scourge didn't it's somehow God's gift to tanks. Combo oriented classes that had 1 bitton, apply 30 sec dot got killed. Its a core part of drk? At least fracture was used on 3 different jobs strategically to manipulate the rotation. Thats more engaging than scourge ever was.

Except on Samurai and Paladin. SAM clearly didn't retain its dot being a new class, but if the reason for not having non-combo dots is entirely for SMN benefit I don't see why SAM would be designed with one or why Paladin would retain its dot on Circle of Scorn. I'm a bit sketchy on an argument that all combo based classes needed to lose non-combo dots when 2/7's of them have one. Also I'm relatively certain Chaos Thrust was HW Dragoon's highest ppgcd, but my memory is weak and my knowledge of Dragoon is questionable.

As far as Fracture, I know 1 non-warrior tank in the top 10 in Alexander (on only 1 fight to be very clear) who actually used fracture, and even there the other 9 out of 10 did not use fracture. Not exactly engaging for other tanks (except I guess in that very very small percentage of cases where it might be a consideration), but certainly had its uses for warrior.

1 dot won't kill the game? Let's see how long it takes SMN to notice getting cred in eureka to make their relics is harder on dot classes in open world trying to grind out the best weapon in the tier. 5, 4, 3, 2,....

I would like to point for a second time that there is no reason that Scourge needs to come back as a dot. I imagine it could be redesigned as an oGCD selfbuff like salted earth and avoid the issue of there being a cap on dots entirely. It could retain its animation, but be oGCD and that avoids all the issues which have been raised. I for one would love to see some more oGCD on DRK that isn't Dark Arts spam.

Scourge objectively offered nothing but a damage boost. If se wants you to do more damage they would just type a different number in any number of potency boxes. It's the exact same as fracture and phleb. Nothing iconic. Nothing job specific.

As someone who played dark knight all through HW I actually liked the dot management that came with the DRK, and was rewarding because better uptime was rewarded. People are asking for it back, apparently they liked the way that it interacted with the game play of dark knight too. Thats despite what you have pointed out. Personally I think it would be great for the class since they decided to make it a two combo class (and really effectively 1 combo class), it would go a long way in breaking up the soul eater spam DRK currently has.

[Crater]

They removed non combo dots.

Thunder
Bio I/II/III
Miasma
Miasma II
Windbite/Stormbite
Venomous Bite/Caustic Bite
Aero III
Aero I/II
Higanbana
Circle of Scorn

You can make the exact same argument for phlebotomize.

You can, and it was okay because Dragoon received a huge overhaul to its core class gameplay.

Full Thrust got bumped up from 360 potency to 450 potency since 3.x. If Souleater had gone from 280 base potency to 370, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Power Surge was removed, and was instead built into each and every Jump that a Dragoon does, while the other parameters of Jump were unchanged. If Dark Passenger had kept its HW MP cost and potency and had simply had the Dark Arts Blind and 100 potency built in, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Dragoon went from 4 GCDs per combo to 5 GCDs per combo, with the 4th and 5th GCDs bumped up to 300 and 400 potency respectively. If Delirium were a 4th combo GCD on Dark Knight with a potency of 350+, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The Heavensward class mechanic of Dragoon consuming their BotD timer to use Geirskogul was removed and replaced with a powerful second-stage upgrade to BotD that gives the class a huge burst of damage under LotD. The Heavensward class mechanic of Dark Knight gaining tons of potency from Parrying and taking damage in general was removed and replaced with absolutely nothing.

1 dot won't kill the game? Let's see how long it takes SMN to notice getting cred in eureka to make their relics is harder on dot classes in open world trying to grind out the best weapon in the tier. 5, 4, 3, 2,....

No it won't kill the game, don't be dense.

In Heavensward, every class could apply 3-4 DoTs or other high-uptime debuffs except for BRD (2 DoTs), BLM, and MCH (1 DoT each). In Stormblood, no class except SCH (after the restoration of Miasma II) can apply more than 2 high-uptime debuffs. Dark Knight can apply zero. Restoring Scourge is not going to cause a single problem. Period.

[Aana]

Thunder
Bio I/II/III
Miasma
Miasma II
Windbite/Stormbite
Venomous Bite/Caustic Bite
Aero III
Aero I/II
Higanbana
Circle of Scorn

No it won't kill the game, don't be dense.

Combo oriented classes that had 1 bitton, apply 30 sec dot got killed.

Which actually leaves.

Higanbana
Circle of Scorn

Higibana is not quite a 1 GCD dot in line with phleb/frac/scourge, but I think that would be pretty obvious. Scorn isn't even a gcd, has additional effects (enmity/aoe), and is the shortest duration dot in the game and incapable of having 100% uptime. So please,

don't be dense.

Dots that got the boot were non-combo dots on combo classes (why pld/nin kept their combo dots) and had no additional effect or nuance of any kind to make space for new jobs debuffs and lighten the load in 24/open world content. Just like they combined all 3 slashing debuffs to a single debuff. Removed healer dots. Removed any non-combo dots whos only purpose was damage on classes that centered around combos.

The deleted boring 1 off skills on combo classes to make space for all the new shiz (little things like new jobs). One of the #1 things when getting rid of bloat to make space for new skills on existing jobs and entirely new jobs is to delete the low hanging fruit skills that don't offer anything. fire and forget dots are the paragon of that fruit. They offer nothing except passive background damage.

[Chrono_Rising]

This post really deserves more attention. There's more going on than just taking your toys away when se makes decisions like this. They cleaned house on dots for a VERY good reason across the board. Bringing back dots literally isn't good for the game on a technical level. Never mind 1 hit dot maintenance is terribly bland gameplay and other reasons.

If this is really an issue to add back one more dot to the game they could always modify it to be a personal buff rather than a dot on the boss. For example make Scourge oGCD with a 30 second cooldown that enhances our dark side to deal damage temporarily. This doesn't have to be an on off decision in terms of dots, isn't 1 push game play, and adds an oGCD to a class that saw the removal of so many.

I'm also not convinced one more dot would break the game, nor am I convinced that Scourage was the best move to remove. If anything I would think they would have removed Paladin's Circle of Scorn as a dot, give them the damage of upfront rather than deal it as dot damage, then there is room for 1 more dot in the game.

My real question is why it seems like so little care was taken to balance and design Dark Knight, but other classes saw so much care put into their design. At release, Dark Knight *apparently* needed all these nerfs and then got a 5% boost to its darkside. There are just so many questionable and poor choices that were made with this class IMO, and I just cannot explain why.

1, People didn't like the two rotation life of Paladin. Why not try it on dark knight?

2. People play Dark knight because it has all these oGCD moves that make the class feel fast paced. Why not remove most of them and add almost no oGCD skills back? To add to this: Let's double down and remove one of dark knights hardest hitting moves and replace it with another hard hitting move that doesn't make up the difference between Scourge and oGCD skills! The follow up I imagine was Dark Knight being undertuned, so lets just buff darkside and call it a day.

3. People don't like that 3.x Dark Knight has some anti-synergy in its kit. Why don't we remove the synergy that is there (dark dance + reprisal or dark dance + low blow) and leave the anti-synergy (blind + blood price, stun + blood price)?

4. Lets standardize Dark Arts as a damaging buffing move, but lets keep it as a cost for tank defense as well!

5. People look at Dark knight as a Paladin clone, lets remove some of its enfeeblement identity to help make it stand out.

6. Dark Knight has strong AOE game, better nerf Dark Passenger! Oh better add more AOE, lets give an AOE move using Blood!

I get that things needed to change, there would be no room on our hot bars if they didn't remove abilities, I get that they needed to accommodate their servers so some instances would work as intended. What I don't get is why they took so little care with some classes. I don't see how it is good design to ignore why your player base plays a certain class and then radically change the class from one expansion to the next. If your hands were tied and you needed to gut one class in particular, at least put in the time to make sure that the spirit of the class was maintained or even improved. Right now Paladin feels more like 3.x Dark Knight, more than 4.x Dark Knight feels like 3.x dark knight, and that is just a weird thing to happen in an expansion.