It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Kazgrel]

Healers should only focus on healing its dps job to do most the damage on tank to hold the agro. Every time see whm use holy there is a delay before they can use a healing spell. So if a tank takes hard hit when there using holy they will die before they get chance to be healed. Happened to many times in parties been in and then group wipes.

Translation: HEALERS R 4 HEALZ ONREEEEEEEEEEEE

[Thoro39]

The Tank can't take a "hard hit" when the trashmobs are stunned through sheer holy spamming.

[dotsforlife]

It's appalling to see so many players play half-assed or spout nonsense with half baked knowledge. I sincerely hope this isn't a reflection of how they live their lives irl. A person won't get very far that way.

It's one thing to be uneducated on a class. It's another to be ignorant to it.

[Tridus]

It's appalling to see so many players play half-assed or spout nonsense with half baked knowledge. I sincerely hope this isn't a reflection of how they live their lives irl. A person won't get very far that way.

It's one thing to be uneducated on a class. It's another to be ignorant to it.

It's called the Dunning–Kruger effect. Accurate self-evaluation requires a certain amount of skill and knowledge in the thing you're trying to evaluate. That is: you have to know a certain amount about healing to be able to evaluate how good a healer you are.

People who lack that base knowledge have no way to assess their own skills accurately, and usually mistakenly assume they are far more skilled/knowledgeable than they truly are. Thus, they honestly believe they're really good healers and that they know what they're talking about. This applies across everything humans do, and all of us are susceptible to it. It's a skill in itself to have the self-awareness to realize that you don't know anything and that your self-evaluations are wrong (hence philosophical quotes like "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing").

Or the colloquial: "You don't know what you don't know."

(Interestingly, competent people were found in the same studies to underestimate their own abilities. That leads to a situation where they don't understand that things are easy for them because they're highly skilled/knowledgeable, and instead think that those things must be easy for everyone.)

[Xerek]

I think this is drifting off the original topic. The idea originally seemed to focus on what is creating the mindset and meta. If a healer prefers to primarily heal...let me phrase this carefully...it's alright for them to feel that way. The problem is, FF XIV's current build simply isn't built that way. This is the meta the OP is referring to. The current idea is to actually require very little tanking/healing out of tanks/healers so that players of all skill levels can accomplish their primary goal in casual content. However, as already noted multiple times in this thread, that means that tanks and healers who are really good at their jobs are really *not* going to be tanks or healers. They are DPS with tank/heal support skills.

Some people don't like it. I liked the idea of wedging some damage into my healing in the past, and using the dreaded Cleric Stance dance. Back then, I still felt primarily like a healer. If I had, say, 75% time spend on heals/buffs and 25% on DPS, I'd be happy. I'd feel like a healer optimizing my playstyle by sneaking some DPS in. That's...not what I feel now. I feel like a sub-par DPS (I play AST and so literally have a DoT, a single-target and an AoE) that also heals a little here or there. I fully understand and empathize with healers that feel the same. At the start we were asked if we wanted to tank, heal or DPS. In reality, the choice now is do you want to DPS...and tank a little, DPS...and heal a little or just plain DPS 100%? And if you don't want to primarily DPS? Well, currently there is nothing for you in FF XIV.

Problem is, what can you do about it? Obvious solution would be for things to hit harder, prompting tanks and healers to work harder as tanks and healers...leaving less time for DPS. However, that comes with problems. First, there are fewer tanks and healers in the game. Ramp up the difficulty significantly, and you might lose some. Then there will be the outcry against tanks and healers when implemented and all of a sudden the run is rougher, along with complaints from people who would still expect a ton of DPS out of tanks and healers despite the change. There would be harassment and shaming, and eventually cries to nerf the content. Essentially, the damage is already done, and that makes it a lot harder to right things. As such, I don't see SE doing a thing about it. They're happy with things the way they are now, where everyone is primarily a DPS, because it allows players of a wider range of skills to play and clear. If you're looking for a role where DPS isn't you're primary focus...well...you won't find one. Not in FF XIV.

To those complaining about people not wanting to DPS. Please take a deep breath and try to be understanding. Things have gotten nasty in here. Keep in mind it comes down to playstyle. Some people would rather tank or heal. Some people might not want or like to DPS. That is playstyle preference, *not* laziness. They have every right to be frustrated by the game the way it is now and the expectations that is placing on people. Try and put yourself in their shoes before blasting them. Try to understand their motivations. No, I don't think a majority of them are advocating healing for 15% of the time and doing nothing else is ideal. They'd love to have things to do the other 85% of the time. Just...not DPS. And that is where this entire thing stems from.

[Stanelis]

The issue is mostly that FFXIV's jobs, roles and content are designed to be far too "simple" on a macro design standpoint. Basically the only way you're interacting with monsters is by damaging them while avoiding damage via movements. In serious content there are no coherent use of interrupts, crowd controls (even though those aspects were used in 2.0) or content designed to measure the ability of a tank to get asap the aggro of mobs and to hold it (such as what was expected of tank on twintania on T5 with the snakes).

Therefore, as the tanking jobs (and to a lesser extent the healing jobs, as the healing role is little more than buffing and healing people through direct and indirect heals, aside from DPS) and the tanking role is so simple, SE had to find a way to insuflate artificial difficulty to the roles (just as artificial difficulty is added to content through DPS checks), and that artificial difficulty is the requirement to DPS for healers and tank (that is intended to mask the flaws of the current game design).

Bottom line is you cannot expect a change in the current tanking and healing design unless SE decides to overhaul its game design, but for some reason I don't really see that happening anytime soon.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...

In all honesty, the only thought I have would be to dabble with CC again much like what we had in the ARR Betas, it was the norm to CC everything due to trash packs being larger and hitting far harder relative to how less geared people were. Juggling a bunch of Repose timers makes it much harder to go nuts with the dps!
...

The issue is mostly that FFXIV's jobs, roles and content are designed to be far too "simple" on a macro design standpoint. Basically the only way you're interacting with monsters is by damaging them while avoiding damage via movements. In serious content there are no coherent use of interrupts, crowd controls (even though those aspects were used in 2.0) or content designed to measure the ability of a tank to get asap the aggro of mobs and to hold it (such as what was expected of tank on twintania on T5 with the snakes).

Therefore, as the tanking jobs (and to a lesser extent the healing jobs, as the healing role is little more than buffing and healing people through direct and indirect heals, aside from DPS) and the tanking role is so simple, SE had to find a way to insuflate artificial difficulty to the roles (just as artificial difficulty is added to content through DPS checks), and that artificial difficulty is the requirement to DPS for healers and tank (that is intended to mask the flaws of the current game design).

Bottom line is you cannot expect a change in the current tanking and healing design unless SE decides to overhaul its game design, but for some reason I don't really see that happening anytime soon.

With the removal of damage on CC abilities, it's possible for the dev team to make CC a more integral part of content design.

Since, without damage on the CC abilities, dps players won't be spamming them for the dps increase, and thus the mobs are much less likely to have become immune to CC.

[D_C]

Lotsa words

Yer quite right matey, about a lotta things. The sad truth is that monsters don't demand enough outta the healers ta make idling not an issue. I was gonna start a new thread 'bout this but I might as well just whinge 'ere.

Healin' is too powerful. It all comes down ta this really. Too many OGCD heals that are too strong, potency across tha board is really high, mana ain't a real issue. It ruins fight design, it ruins tank design, and it's the reason ya have a DPS focus on everythin'.

They ain't gonna change it, mind ya. This shite's about caterin' ta a very...Certain demographic. Don't think it's really an issue - everyone should be able ta enjoy themselves and it don't have ta be in the same game. There are people that legitimately like this system and I wouldn't wanna see that taken from 'em.

It's just hard ta admit when ya really like this game on a lot of other points that it'll never be the way ya wish it was.

[Nezia]

Actually, the fact that healers can do some damage in this game is the reason why for the first time in over 10 years of MMOs I finally found healers to be enjoyable.

You see... In other games when I played healer I felt like just an accessorie. When running a dungeon I had to pray to the gods so that the tank was not one of those guys who are scared of seeing their own HP drop bellow 90%, or the dps was not fighting with the tank on the dps meters.

But here? I feel like a god in dgs, is the tank scared of big pulls? NP, drop some hots on him and keep spamming my damage skills. Does the tank want to pull big? Better, I focus heal on him and drop some aoe here and there. Do dps guys suck? I can compensate for that as well. Like... really, healers are just so versatile and enjoyable in this game with how much damage they can pull off while keeping the group alive, I really don't get why people want that to be gone.

[Taika]

Actually, the fact that healers can do some damage in this game is the reason why for the first time in over 10 years of MMOs I finally found healers to be enjoyable.

Same here! Although I also enjoyed playing SCH in FFXI with healing and buffing and dotting.

Also, to make it clear, I do understand that some people don't enjoy this style of tanks or healers (or BRDs or SMNs or whatever!). And I do understand that it sucks, especially if you'd like to play the game but none of the jobs feel right for you as they are. But in the end, I just think that if you pick a job and decide to join team content with it, you should do your best to play that job as well as possible in that group. I have endless tolerance if you have any true obstacles that prevent you from performing very well or even playing it right, but what I don't have understanding for is choosing to be less helpful to your team than you could, for whatever reason.