On the Nature of Monk

[Shurrikhan]

Resource is a depleting gauge with tier levels (Credit to Shurrikhan on this idea)

tfw you've suggested so many different variations on an idea that you don't remember which is being referenced...

What will follow, on edit, are a series of suggestions meant to test the waters in terms of community perception over:
(A) What extent of changes are acceptable for the purpose of (1) broad and (2) job-specific design cohesiveness and (3) optional widening of available niches and uses of the Monk toolkit
(B) What, essentially, is a Monk, lore-wise, and how should that affect its manifestation in gameplay
(C) What range of tools and complexity ought be available to Monk as a level 70 XIV job (of which very few have significant complexity)
(D) How significantly should Monk be permitted to vary in its internal systems from other DPS (e.g. could it perhaps make use of any and all 9 of its weaponskills in any order, although at varying situational viability?)

My own designs always approach from a perspective of reducing button bloat. That is not to say that I think that we should have a low button count, and certainly not that job gameplay should be any simpler than it already is. Rather, I simply wish for each button to be individually and more or less consistently impactful as an actual option or decision, rather than just as obligatory convolution for an decision set prior; at no point should multiple keys, especially those without even a recast time, become wholly unusable in a given global. Moreover, I am fully willing to suggest broad changes that I see as being essential to future broad improvements where relevant to the job I am suggesting improvements to (e.g. I see no issue creating a buff-potency system to fix One-Ilm Punch, as I do not see it as merely a fix to OIP alone). As such, the suggestions here may differ jarringly from XIV's designs thus far.

I already realize, therefore, that they will never see implementation: rather, I am looking to see what parts, mutatis mutandis, you think would make for improved gameplay, or at least point towards an improved design philosophy or perspective.

(Still typing out actual suggestions):

Broad Design Goals (mostly irrelevant at this time)

• Mana Point (MP) usage across all jobs, though in highly varied ways
• Revision to Tactical Points (TP) concept to see more significant and universal use
• Addition of / support for "variable" or "rushable" and "resource" cooldowns
• Addition of / support for interactable buffs (e.g. stackable shields, modifiable modifiers)
• Addition of / support for a general Stagger/Boon multiplier system
• Addition of / support for status effects as granular spectrums
• Addition of / support for continuous growth/decay of (de)buffs
• Addition of / support for "conditional" or "stacked" keys and state-adjusted "modes"
• Addition of / support of progressive (cumulatively diminished) AoEs
• Addition of universal shorthand modifiers (such as Cleave: 50, in place of more lengthy texts' effects that nonetheless amount to no smoother or more intuitive indication of strength for the given category)
• Things are just as AoE as they look
• Adjustment of mob aiming/turning systems (now turn only as necessary, at type-derived behaviors and speeds, to keep their target within their field of vision, allowing for quick adjustments on the tank's part without jarring position)
• Future-proofed comprehensive stat balancing

Monk Design Goals:

• Granular Resources
• Diversification of Stances
• Light and Dark Chakra
• Versatile Resource Spenders
• Little to no wasted key-space (aiming for at most 20 keys, not including <Stat> Potion, Limit Break, Sprint, and mount)

Landmines / Conflicts:

• Forms : Were the ability to manipulate the timings of our Forms returned (such as done modularly via Touch of Death and Fracture, previously, or even Impulse Drive in 2.0), Forms might continue provide a distinct and satisfying take on the combo system that offers a unique sense of timing to the Monk. However, they would still be just as button-inefficient as any other combo system lest all 9 weaponskills were combined into 3 slots, giving the 3 options within one's currently available form, while that in turn would limit the immediacy of Perfect Balance by, say, requiring a then-no-animation, oGCD form of Form Shift to be utilized, making what would usually use a button-order (in order of acquisition) 5, 3, 3, 4, 9, 3 opener [Demo, Snap, Snap, Twin, Dragon, Snap] opener into something like 2, [4], [4], 1, [4], [4], 1, [4], [4], 3, [4], 1 opener, requiring a much higher APM during that time, even if not technically adding any animations or animation lock.
  
  
• Positionals (given Forms) : Alternatively, 2 out of 3 weaponskills per Form vary only by position. One could simply then have ST-damage and Other options per Form, where Bootshine from the side transforms to Dragon Kick, True Strike into Twin Snakes, and Demolish from the side retains Snap Punch (this one's far more iffy). This would only see counter-synergy with True North, which like most Role Skills I can only see as bloat, as it simply allows for the periodic circumvention, rather than skillful navigation, of difficulty in positioning. This would increase the relative significance of proper positioning, but so long as Dragon Kick has no raid-saving benefits by which to influence the choice beyond greatest ppg (potency per global).
  
  
• Ideally, I'd like to entirely avoid both these conflicts and any consequent need for compromise. This will most likely depend on a rework of the Fists stances into dynamic oGCD skills, allowing for hugely more fluid, flexible, bankable, and nuanced control over the Monk rotations, though such a rework should be attractive in its own right. (This is what I am finalizing now.)

Annnnndddd, finding the balance of those oGCD reworks to avoid both landmines is proving a challenge. Hopefully I'll have something in a couple days, at which point I'll unhide the important bits of this.

[Id_Slayer]

I just got to 70 on mnk to get away from all of the missed opportunities for innovation and creativity on heated slug shots and other musings(re: failings) of what the dev team did to MCH...and am left wondering what did I just spend my time doing. lol

As a new player to 70 mnk and my first melee dps Greased lightning had a great feeling to it all the way until riddle of fire. Why do I punch slower? What is the thought process behind this? It is a 180 degree turn; an about-face as if we are marching towards stupidity.

Also, Riddle of earth doesn't work. Has anyone submitted a bug report for why Riddle of earth doesn't extend greased lightning. Earth's reply seems great if you're going to take damage when the boss goes invulnerable etc. But when the bosses go invulnerable to do a special move and I hit riddle of earth it never works. Is it just the tooltip or the ability? Or are the Dev's really so stupid that they don't even know how to program a job ability and forgot about MNK?

[Tigerlilley]

Also, Riddle of earth doesn't work. Has anyone submitted a bug report for why Riddle of earth doesn't extend greased lightning. Earth's reply seems great if you're going to take damage when the boss goes invulnerable etc. But when the bosses go invulnerable to do a special move and I hit riddle of earth it never works. Is it just the tooltip or the ability? Or are the Dev's really so stupid that they don't even know how to program a job ability and forgot about MNK?

You're the second person in this thread to ask this. Another great idea along with putting slow on Riddle of Fire was making it so Riddle of Earth only works if you take damage. If. You. Take. Damage. If your healer gives you a shield or there is mitigation (tank special moves etc), RoE won't proc and you'll lose your stacks. Basically, you're the victim of everyone else doing their job.

[RisaStoleMyHeart]

Started this game 3 weeks ago, and just stuck to Monk for whatever reason. I would just like some QoL changes, such as Fist of Earth/Fire/Air just all being one toggle-able skill with less cast time. And i also would like GL stack to go up if even you hit an invulnerable enemy with Demolish, Snap or whatever.

[KanameYuuki]

As a new player to 70 mnk and my first melee dps Greased lightning had a great feeling to it all the way until riddle of fire. Why do I punch slower? What is the thought process behind this? It is a 180 degree turn; an about-face as if we are marching towards stupidity.

It can't be said enough times, I think I wouldn't even be complaining about the whole picture if Riddle of Fire wasn't so bad. I've main Monk since halfway on Heavensward and every time I pop that skill I feel all these years of muscle memory went down the drain, I always have to look my cross bar to make sure I even hit anything with a skill because the rhythm it's all messed up.
Lv 62 until right before RoF it's still pretty fun, even if RoE works only when it feels like, and Deep Meditation while not perfect made chakras an actually usable resource (But I still think it should be learned as soon as you get meditation since it's even more useless on lower levels now that purification is not necessary on big pulls and we lost potencies all across the board to make up for forbidden chakra which again, it's not a valid resource until 62).

[Wintersandman]

I just have to say. I have been leveling Dragoon and Samurai. Haven't touched Ninja yet but it really feels like they bolted on abilities on top of Monk whereas with Samurai and Dragoon they are a true expansion. You could theoretically take away everything Monk was given in SB and no one would complain as the abilities break it more than it helps.

[Shurrikhan]

It can't be said enough times, I think I wouldn't even be complaining about the whole picture if Riddle of Fire wasn't so bad. I've main Monk since halfway on Heavensward and every time I pop that skill I feel all these years of muscle memory went down the drain, I always have to look my cross bar to make sure I even hit anything with a skill because the rhythm it's all messed up.
Lv 62 until right before RoF it's still pretty fun, even if RoE works only when it feels like, and Deep Meditation while not perfect made chakras an actually usable resource (But I still think it should be learned as soon as you get meditation since it's even more useless on lower levels now that purification is not necessary on big pulls and we lost potencies all across the board to make up for forbidden chakra which again, it's not a valid resource until 62).

By that idea, though, couldn't RoF actually have been our hidden signal for aid? Or at least, a way someone tried to put Monk out of its already discombobulated misery?

[Blazephina]

Some things I’ve thought of while playing.
Tornado kick - only consumes 1 greased lightning stack and potency scaling is something like 150-300-450? Maybe higher or lower and make the cd so you can only use it once every two combos or something. Get to form 3 pop tornado then use finisher to refresh gl 3
Brotherhood - redesigned so that it is 5% to everyone and every 5 - 6 weaponskills / spells fast while it is up grants 1 chakra. Would eliminate rng portion and you could nin max it and have people drop their OGCD during it.
Every time you use a finisher when you already have 3 stacks of greased lightning it grants 1 chakra (so every other you’d be at 1 because of tornado and then the other finisher would give a chakra).
CD on forbidden chakra removed or at least made a lot smaller. Bards proc ability has none so when they gettin the crits they can just unload. Should work similar.
Max chakra 7 or higher like nin Sam Kenki ninki bars

[Blazephina]

To clarify, potency on tornado kick is based on how many greased lightning you have when you cast it. So if you have 1 stack you get the 150 value and if you have 3 you get the 450 value. So it scales with how many you have when you cast it.

Also with these changes we'd prob be overtuned I'm sure so just go ahead and get rid of riddle of fire

But seriously I'd rather they test out stuff like on a test server or something, make the class fun to play again (even if its overtuned in testing) and then just nerf potencies until we're at what dps we do now. I do a lot of dps now in raids but as most people have said that isn't what I care about.

Edit: both sent from phone sorry

[Mahrze]

Something that I have been giving a good thought is how to simplify job traits and focus on minimizing button bloat.


To remind Shurrikhan what I remember from his suggestion:

Moreover, for a mechanic to ever feel like a reward to maximize, rather than a punishment to lose, it needs to have something like exponential difficulty or preperation required to be maximized such that maximization is rare, and it needs to be balanced around a state that is less than maximization.

Imagine, for instance, if GL was not a fixed duration, but instead extended by relative potency dealt (potency of all weaponskills, DoT ticks, and abilities, as per their multipliers). While GL could still be advanced by Coeurl moves, perhaps even technically to an infinite level, each ascended level burns through that duration more quickly, whereupon it descends to the previous level. You would be fighting for every precious second of GL4, but it would be always there, always possible, and would thereby again allow further modular control. Have both a single-burner (new) and all-burner (Tornado Kick) ability by which to quickly manipulate GL downwards. Now, after due tuning, the whole spectrum is in your hands: it's now a real mechanic, and its heights actually feel like rewards, not just the initial requirement for dealing halfway acceptable damage.

Something stemming from what I saw in that is looking to simplify Fists of Wind and Greased Lightning since in concept it seems to serve the same purpose. Now I am considering this change by already trading off RoF for something else and keeping utility and buff strictly on one concept: Wind is the buff trait with MNK.

Greased Lightning:

• Levels or Tiers: Become a passive trait, meaning that after you're lvl 20 or 40, your initial strike automatically triggers the corresponding tier buff.
• Combos: Each Weapon-skill can create a new resource to use with skills
  • Based on this I also figured that since it's a resource we can use it to power up existing skills (Like Howling Fist and Elixir Field), make skills far more usable (Tornado Kick usage is far more often) or aid mobility (Shoulder tackle resource spam?)
  • Said resource can unlock a strong self buff for a limited time (GL IV) by making this strong buff use up all of said resource to gate and make use of MNKs continuous-to-the-mob play style.
• Lose the Form-crutch: Being independent from this and just grant a resource from a weapon-skill that connects to gain said resource would be far more engaging than muscle memory a punching symphony.
• Selfish sufficiency: If we have the resource passively reduce CD usage by a percent while being active, it would add to MNK using many more abilities to weave between a GCD sequence than waiting until the stars align.

Now I know plenty will knee jerk react with punching me on the face with this but hear me out, this would immediately remove 2 buttons that one is a joke in terms of usage (PB on long cooldown) and one seems like a trigger happy stress pad (Form Shift). Tornado kick would become a skill that can be use often (and being an AoE would be great) and we can obviously work on F/RoE to be something else than a rather useless defense buff with a trigger-effect that sees very little use.


P.S: I have been updating the first post, adding the suggestions people add to this thread.