Red Mage could use some help.

[Dualgunner]

Ahh, I see.
Only reason I say it creeps up on ta is its a wider window than it; its sort of like the infusion vs the supramax I think it is. Didn't know hypercharge offhand.
Edit:
Wow hit my limit damn quick.

@Shuri: The hypothetical buffed embo would also be universal damage, but you do make a good point.

[Singularity]

I know I'm in enemy territory when I say this, but again you don't want to break your class so hard that it's "required" (Note: we don't want ANYTHING to be trick attack levels of good, because it's broken and always has been. It's incredible that they haven't tweaked it in almost 4 full years). Or do you. I guess I don't know.

I understand what you mean. I'm not trying to make my main job broken, but I would argue that if Trick Attack is the gold standard for what SE wants a "utility DPS" to deliver to group DPS (as evidenced by the fact that it has not changed at all in three years since NIN was released), and Embolden is the only way RDM can contribute to group DPS, then it does in fact need to be something this good.

It's not like NIN is miles ahead of other support DPS either - Hypercharge for example delivers 6% universal damage-up for ~28 seconds every two minutes, which isn't quite as good, but MCH has higher personal DPS to compensate.

I expected the proposal I made to elicit a reaction in the realm of "WTF that's so broken", But really I just want all the jobs balanced relatively equally. If RDM is going to have NIN/BRD levels of personal DPS, then it should also contribute NIN/BRD levels of group DPS. Note also that I've completely ignored other utility here, for which I expect NIN still wins out with its aggro control stuff.

[Galvuu]

5% for 20 seconds is basically hypercharge level damage, although a little weaker since it's 6% now for 20 seconds on the turret which generally manifests as 27-29 seconds on the boss, iirc.

Honestly, I think this is the type of direction they should be pursuing for Red Mage. Especially because it makes caster comps potentially viable.
That buff doesn't even seem out of line with the utility ceiling vs personal dps for most other jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

5% for 20 seconds is still in its own way fighting trick for effectiveness, even if it keeps its 2 minute cd. With no taper I'd say find what the average percentage gain it gives now over 20s (can't think of the number off the top of my head) and that would be the number it keeos for 20s every 2 minutes.

Trick affects all damage though, not just allied physical, and can be slightly better aligned to damage peaks. So long one's not clipped just short of an additional peak within TA where all could just barely fit within, say, Hypercharge, shorter at higher rate tends to be better when the product of percentile and duration are technically equal.

To be honest, I'd be happy with just it and Monk both seeing universification to their respective raid buffs, affecting both physical and magical as per Hypercharge and Foe's changes prior.

That, and, again, something that can allow RDM to take on more of a "selfish" dps role at cost to its especially indirect utility (i.e. rezzes), rather than Embolden, so that it doesn't feel like a "only keep it around until we can throw it out".

@Shuri: The hypothetical buffed embo would also be universal damage, but you do make a good point.

Edit (also due to daily cap): Sorry, I must have missed the most recent suggestion there. I am really do badly at that, sorry.

[Tzain]

Honestly, I think this is the type of direction they should be pursuing for Red Mage. Especially because it makes caster comps potentially viable.
That buff doesn't even seem out of line with the utility ceiling vs personal dps for most other jobs.

I'm going to disagree a bit here.
If a Group DPS buff is the 'direction' then that means everyone has to get one to be viable, and they all have to be in the same range. Any classes that don't have one would be playing second fiddle.
Chaining/stacking the Group DPS buffs would become a perhaps overly valued tactic. This ends up heavily influencing the meta considering how valued DPS is in the content.
One way to avoid that would be to make stacking/chaining invalid. Which means a shared resource or other factor, which is basically what a DPS limit break is.
It may be a better plan to move the "group Damage" buffs to be 'personal' damage buffs and reserve 'group wide effects' strictly for survival related utility. This acts to even out the playing field without homogenizing the classes too much.
Plus, everyone having it is the functional equivalent of no one having it.
Alternatively, if only a few have it as their particular 'utility' then that 'Group Damage Utility' need have it's need/desire/usage balanced against all other unique forms of Utility, which is the root of the current problem.

It's not that your idea isn't valid, it totally is. But I do see it also throwing fuel on what is already a fire.

[Llugen]

I mean, I've been saying that for quite some time now @Tzain in relation to BLM.

There is no such thing as "raw damage is utility" in this game, because jobs that buff the party will ALWAYS be preferred by parties (this is a no-brainer) and the total DPS will be stronger 9 times out of 10.

Parties want to BE FED, parties don't want TO FEED ONE PLAYER. Therefore, all classes should have SOME kind of utility buff, period. Not all need to be heaping with it like BRD is, but SOMETHING.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

I think the main thing most people overlook, is that certain jobs might need fixing, but -why- does it need fixing?

And the awnser is quite simple, its the way the meta is currently. Buffs like disembowel, and trick attack lend themselves to this way of thinking, and quite frankly, are simply the best way to make the best comp with the best overall group dps.

Some things I think should just vanish, like disembowel, and let the jobs that benefit from it, just get a raise in their overall dps to compensate. But lets say we keep disembowel, why not add some magic dmg increase that could be kept up full time so that we could have a caster heavy comp? I'm sure theres ways to do it, and let it be a redmage buff. this would not only increase their personal dps, but would facilitate a whole new party comp, centered around magic dps.

[Tzain]

I mean, I've been saying that for quite some time now @Tzain in relation to BLM.

There is no such thing as "raw damage is utility" in this game, because jobs that buff the party will ALWAYS be preferred by parties (this is a no-brainer) and the total DPS will be stronger 9 times out of 10.

Parties want to BE FED, parties don't want TO FEED ONE PLAYER. Therefore, all classes should have SOME kind of utility buff, period. Not all need to be heaping with it like BRD is, but SOMETHING.

Indeed.
In the case of the Black Mage, as I've said before, the main unique utility of the class is the spell "Sleep". On paper, this spell is insanely powerful, an AE Mezz type Control spell with a quick cast time and no cooldown?! I've played games where that sort of spell would have been considered game breakingly OP.
But FFXIV goes out of it's way to avoid giving the spell any use whatsoever. Even in places where it should be super valuable.
So if "Group DPS" is a Utility, and Control is a utility, then in order to be balanced they should be of equal value.
I think we can both agree, that's not even close to the current scenario.
I mean, imagine if nothing in the game was resistant to sleep. Black Mage would have the ability to, nearly at will, pause a boss fight for 30 seconds. Trap an add where he popped. Interrupt/delay a major ability.
With that sort of power, they could do the damage of a wet noodle and still be an automatic add to a party.
I feel Red Mage is in a slightly similar boat, their utility is about "Recovery" in Vercure and Verraise-dualcast. Which has a valuable usage, up to a point anyway. If no one needs ver raise or ver cure then the utility has no ver value.

[Llugen]

Tzain brings up a great point: the ENTIRE premise of this game is maximum damage due to inability to utilize most crowd control in a meaningful way. If anyone is confused on this, re-read the above post.

This is why it matters so much that classes balance well where damage is concerned, especially at the highest end (read: speed killing and progression raiding, not farming or anything "easier/lower")

[Kabooa]

Tzain brings up a great point: the ENTIRE premise of this game is maximum damage due to inability to utilize most crowd control in a meaningful way. If anyone is confused on this, re-read the above post.

This is why it matters so much that classes balance well where damage is concerned, especially at the highest end (read: speed killing and progression raiding, not farming or anything "easier")

One of my favorite potions in BC Era WoW was Dreamless sleep, effectively a 12 second self-mez that restored a good 40% of MP. Let me Sleep allies to restore their MP. >:3