Red Mage could use some help.

[Shurrikhan]

Or, they could give it some depth of mechanics that allow for a meaningful skill ceiling and attract more of the upper end players outside of the most high-casualty or mobility-requiring sections of progression.

But nah, categories -- (Do you want the black one now, or the white one? You done picked the wrong one! There is no nuance to this checklist!) -- are clearly wonderful and sufficient.

[Shouko]

Again, the issue is that rezzing and healing adds no damage utility unless the party is having severe issues. This is why RDM is a valuable progression Job and becomes less valuable as people stop making mistakes.

I don't see RDM as a top DPS, but they probably shouldn't be below BRD.

So this is about wanting more damage afterall? I thougt this was about utility?

Utility:noun
1.
the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial.

Utility: adjective
1.
useful, especially through being able to perform several functions.

I don't know what BRD is like past 50 as I stopped playing it in HW because of having to be a caster by not moving, but I can tell you that most DPS jobs make up most of their DPS from auto attacks, BRD being ranged is always decent DPS because it can move and still be attacking, while RDM can auto attack as well they generally aren't putting a lot of damage out on their auto attacks.

[Dualgunner]

So this is about wanting more damage afterall? I thougt this was about utility?

Utility:noun
1.
the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial.

Utility: adjective
1.
useful, especially through being able to perform several functions.

The dictionary definition of utility isn't going to work here; we're using it to mean a very different thing. In XIV when we say utility, we're generally referring to things a DPS brings that isn't DPS; this can range from heals to raises to refreshes and restores. Damage utility is then what we use to describe a DPS bringing that affects other players' DPS; ie, Trick Attack.

I don't know what BRD is like past 50 as I stopped playing it in HW because of having to be a caster by not moving, but I can tell you that most DPS jobs make up most of their DPS from auto attacks, BRD being ranged is always decent DPS because it can move and still be attacking, while RDM can auto attack as well they generally aren't putting a lot of damage out on their auto attacks.

This doesn't really mean anything in the greater scheme of things.

Bard provides more utility and damage utility than Red Mage; the way Yoshi has gone on record saying about balance, is the more utility/damage utility a job brings, the less damage they bring. At the moment, in both RDM's and BLM's case, this is not true: BLM brings no unique utility, therefore it should be on or above the same tier of damage as a samurai. As stated before, RDM brings less utility and less damage than bard.

Or, they could give it some depth of mechanics that allow for a meaningful skill ceiling and attract more of the upper end players outside of the most high-casualty or mobility-requiring sections of progression.

Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

[Claire_Pendragon]

The dictionary definition of utility isn't going to work here; we're using it to mean a very different thing. In XIV when we say utility, we're generally referring to things a DPS brings that isn't DPS; this can range from heals to raises to refreshes and restores. Damage utility is then what we use to describe a DPS bringing that affects other players' DPS; ie, Trick Attack.



This doesn't really mean anything in the greater scheme of things.

Bard provides more utility and damage utility than Red Mage; the way Yoshi has gone on record saying about balance, is the more utility/damage utility a job brings, the less damage they bring. At the moment, in both RDM's and BLM's case, this is not true: BLM brings no unique utility, therefore it should be on or above the same tier of damage as a samurai. As stated before, RDM brings less utility and less damage than bard.


Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

Pretty sure the "ease" of play was also apart of the decicion making process for the DPS, but I could be wrong. (Which would mean SAM should be lower in DPS)
But either way, RDM might not surpass the casters in DPS or support over all, but they do offer some unique bennefits, so in the end, its not like DRK, which literally has nothing that other tanks have better.
RDM does have +1 more insta raise from SMN, and does offer a physical buff, for physical heavy parties.
Something BLM and SMN doesnt offer.

compared to BRD, RDM offers the better AoE LB3.

This of course doesnt make RDM better than all other DPS, just that it does offer something, that some other DPSs cant offer in the same way.

Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

I actually expect as much.
And of course, I probably wont come back, now that they've removed just about every job or playstyle ive liked, leaving RDM the only one I enjoy atm.
(Not so much because i like simple, but because simple helps with something else. After hours of my raid group slamming their head on the same savage fight, i usually get mentally fatigued, and it stops being fun after 15-45mins, and im looking for any excuse to quit playing.
But for RDM i just dont get tired, and am still happy cheery and wanting to play more.)

[Galvuu]

I don't know what BRD is like past 50 as I stopped playing it in HW because of having to be a caster by not moving, but I can tell you that most DPS jobs make up most of their DPS from auto attacks, BRD being ranged is always decent DPS because it can move and still be attacking, while RDM can auto attack as well they generally aren't putting a lot of damage out on their auto attacks.

(Just gonna repeat junk people said, but might as well clarify this...)

Caster autos do nothing. Like, they seriously do nothing. They do 0.5% of their dps or less (for Black Mage and Red Mage especially, which somehow have weaker autos than Summoner. I'm not sure how book smacking is stronger than using a staff or a sabre, but sure SE, sure).
Bard isn't strong only because it's always autoing. Bard is strong because it's always executing it's rotation perfectly regardless of mechanics. Not just autos, but all ogcds and weaponskills too. You have perfect uptime with bard unless you goof up and stop pressing buttons for some reason.

Not sure what's the difficulty with "utility" either. People understand by utility any beneficial effect (any buff) that helps the party in some way that is not tied directly to your own personal dps. Raging Strikes isn't utility because it's just a damage modifier on your own inherent damage. It's accounted for in your personal dps. Battle Voice is utility because it benefits the whole party and not just yourself. This adds another interesting layer- utility varies depending on party composition and overall execution. Personal buffs, not so much.

People further like to make a distinction between offensive and defensive utility. The former is simple and highly desirable- it gives the whole party more damage. Damage is always useful- it's always live (unless you're an idiot and use a party dps buff while there's no target to hit) and it either helps push phases or clear faster (the faster you clear, the less likely you are to mess up).
Defensive utility is something like Troubadour- a defensive buff that makes it easier to deal with a mechanic. This is a bit harder to quantify in terms of usefulness. Optimally used, it should also bring you a dps gain (healers heal less and can dps more, tanks can stay in dps stance, things like that), but they are harder to use to maximum effectiveness and require more party coordination. It's easier to drop a balance 5 gcds in than it is to coordinate when the tank goes dps stance because shadewalker and apoc are timed perfectly to he can soak up the tankbuster like that.

And how does this relate to Red Mage?
Red Mage has three primary sources of unique utility- Embolden, Vercure and Verraise.
Embolden is offensive utility, so there's not much to talk there. It's effect isn't particularly powerful (it brings like a 300 raid dps increase if well timed), but it's always good to have. It has a nefarious effect of pushing the meta into this dumb metacomp we have because casters do not benefit from it, which is a problem in itself, but since the meta favours physical dps, Red Mage isn't too concerned about this in a practical setting (though it should affect casters for the sake of parity).
The issue comes with the defensive utility. Vercure is downright useless in a raid. Pretend it's not there.
Verraise is very hard to quantify. It simplifies progression by allowing you salvage mistakes, sparing your healers the mana cost of a raise, doing it basically on demand for a small dps loss and allow recovery in tough spots (if you need to aoe heal and raise and the same time, Red Mage used to be the only job that could save the day). Verraise is quite powerful, even in Ultimate progression, despite what some people claim.
What people here are saying, however, is that this utility does not justify Red Mage's low overall damage, both personal and in terms of offensive utility.

And they're right. In a vacuum, Red Mage is great for progression. Not so great for speed killing, but it has a strong, well-defined niche. The problem comes from Summoner.
Summoner is basically a better Red Mage in every respect. It's more mobile, it does way more personal dps and even its offensive utility is stronger (Devotion also affects casters and melee together, for a final salt rub in the wound). While Summoner cannot raise more than once a minute, once a minute is normally all you need in the current most relevant content, Ultimate (die more than this and it's over). And this is a problem.
Jobs usually fall in a utility VS selfish dps spectrum. You either bring the aforementioned tools to deal with mechanics/buff your party members or you hit hard to kill things fast. And it's not acceptable (imho) that a job does considerably more damage than Red Mage while also stealing the niche of its utility. You can play with Red Mage over Summoner, sure. You can also play at min ilv for whatever reason.
When we're talking actually hard content, do you want to risk a wipe on Golden Bahamut because you lacked 100 dps to beat the enrage? On a 20 minute fight?
No, you don't. So you'd prefer a Summoner always.
Repeat this logic for every fight over different levels of skill.
The top 1% of the playerbase has this reasoning for ultimate. The top 10% for O4S. The top 15% for O3S and so on.

It's not just the playerbase and its perception that a job is bad that's the problem.
It's that, statistically, for some level of execution, accounting for the inherent variability of human error and inherent to the dps rotation, Summoner is strictly better than Red Mage except for some contrived example where everyone dies and Red Mage does 3 rezzes in a row and saves the day (you're just gonna wipe if this happens 99% of the time though).


(Let me add that the "b-but perfect balance is impossible!" talk is nonsense. Of course it is. But that's why we rebalance every patch, to try and nudge closer to that optimal balance that still offers gameplay diversity. We cannot resign to a "this can't be done" or the game just stalls and these imbalances spiral out of control with time. There's a myriad examples of bad balancing in games and how it alienates part of the playerbase, strangles gameplay diversity and overall makes for a bad game experience. I absolutely love this game, and I really wish for it to keep going strong as it has for the 5 years I've spent in it, so if a job is suffering, I do like to chime in if I've something useful to say. And for the record, I understand Black Mage is absolute trash right now, but that doesn't mean Red Mage doesn't have problems too- they have every right to voice their worries, and since we, as Black Mages, are feeling them all too much lately, we should join them so they too are heard)

[Llugen]

I'll be blunt. BLM has no value. It's entirely worthless right now because everything it does, SMN does it better. If SE refuses to give BLM the substantial buff it needs without nerfing SMN, it won't matter a hoot what happens to RDM relative to the caster meta. On the other hand, if they do make proper adjustments, any moderate increase to RDM's DPS won't impact BLM whatsoever.

I still think this logic is only half true at best. It depends entirely on what they do, yes, but if they do make BLM insanely high and still raise RDM damage, people are still going to be clamoring for RDM buffs because the gap is "too big." I can see the logic relative to bard, I suppose.

[Maero]

People that comment that Red Mage damage is fine where it is at clearly do not play it. And yes blm is far worst shape however and i do play both. (Have mained blm for 4 years)
All i am saying is Red should get a minor dmg buff perhaps with the cost of increasing mp to raise, not sure

[Cynfael]

Snip.

Utility and adding damage are not mutually exclusive concepts by any means, even if you throw a dictionary at the word. Also see context of this discussion thread and refer to Galvuu’s long and informative response.

Not sure what the bit about BRD is supposed to mean. The argument some of us are making is that RDM should not deal less total damage than BRD since RDM’s brand of utility isn’t nearly as potent or as universally desirable as what BRD brings.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Out of curiosity, how much more dps equals utility on the scale of game balance? Should red mages do more damage than a bard? Or should the two jobs be equivalent in damage output?

There is no doubt that the ability to quickly raise a dead character is powerful. While, I understand this is an ability which is used less as the red mage progresses into harder content, it is highly useful in the content most players play. That utility cannot just be dismissed with a wave of a hand and clever words. Yet, bards do a great variety of benefits to the table, overall.

[Cynfael]

...it is highly useful in the content most players play. That utility cannot just be dismissed with a wave of a hand and clever words.

On this point I respectfully disagree.

It is only with harder content that RDM rez utility is truly valued, and progressively less so as players become more proficient and better equipped.

In content most players arguably spend the most time playing, the ability to instacast rez on demand is so niche as to be easily dismissed. If we’re talking the occasional resurrection of a lag death or mechanics failure, even that of the healer, that’s nothing a SMN can’t take care of while still performing the primary DPS function at a much higher level.