well thats what I meant it wasn't about ultimate at all.... so we currently don't talk about the same point tho. and you haven't told me anything I wasn't aware about yet regarding the ultimate firsts grp. although it wasn't the point anyway to talk about ultimate in specification - what you say about "meta" is true, they try and error as well even more than the rest but (like you said yourself in this situation it was personal preference) even though it has nothing to say that the worlds first comp is automatically the new meta. maybe the same grp can do even better with another comp they haven't tried yet. anyway, on the other hand isn't it just lame to copy cat the big ones? we won't do that... can't understand that so many other not just do it (what they absolutely can if they like to) but praise it as well (whats bullshit imo...)...