why not let player rise to the challange

[Ayer2015]

snip

There was defiantly a lot projected onto my statement from their post which had no relevance to my point; which was simply relating to the devs being comfortable with people taking breaks from the game, which I find many players very resistant to.

[Ayer2015]

snip

I fail to see how "hardcore" or "casual" gamers have anything to do with the rate in which content is developed and the fact the game's development cycle is structured in a manner to allow for the playerbase to have a life outside of the game. We already have various degrees of difficulty in the game to cater to subsets of the player base.

[Savagelf]

I like ffxiv as it is i just want more complex to some jobs mainly the pet jobs

[TaleraRistain]

Kaethra, I agree with everything you have just said, including the changes to MSQ to remove 4 man and 8 man instances. I know where you are coming from with EQ. I was a full-time raider there and I remember when the gear gap started to grow and grow. I remember how many people jumped ship for more casual games like EQII and WoW when they came out, as one of the main complaints on the forums was inability to do anything without a group and a huge gear gap between the raiders and the non-raiders. I think they made a valiant effort with trying to incorporate dungeons and trials into the MSQ, but I agree with you that the absolute mixing of so many different mentalities just creates a lot of toxicity and friction. More separation would mean that those who are at those higher levels choose to be there, and they choose to meet the requirements that are expected at that level.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Off topic:

Thank you for posting a link to the interview, Savagelf! It was a fascinating read.
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I've said it before, in many games. There are two types of players:

1. Those that get it.
2. Those that don't.

The majority from what I've seen in groups lately.. get it somewhat. Using Red Mages as an example. Most seem to grasp the idea of leading with Jolt to fire up Dualcast. Out of a dozen Redmages I've seen over the last 2 weeks I've only encountered one who didn't. They used Jolt twice or occasionally hardcasted verAero/Thunder without Dualcast.

Here's what SquareEnix ought to do:

Remove 4man dungeons and 8man trials from the MSQ. Or allow a version of it to be played that is entirely solo. Allow the 4 man dungeons and the non-expert trials for the intermediate (average) players, and then your hardest content for the more hardened players.

You can't teach the ones who 'don't get it' how to play 'properly'. They're simply not going to grasp it, or lack the manual dexterity to pull it off. Simplifying the classes won't work. Many of them don't even make the connection between a 123 combo. And you know what? They don't even want to learn, they just want to kick back, read the story and see the ending. Let them have it, but segregate them from the rest so the friction between players is lessened.

ESO does this. The MSQ of that game is entirely solo. You never have to group with a player if you don't want to. You can even get some of the best gear in the game (depending on build) through solo play. Then they have 4 man normal dungeons for those who want to group. Those who want a little more challenge have access to Veteran versions. You basically do the content you can do and are no way pressured to do content beyond your ability. FFXIV could benefit from this example.

Absolutely not true. It's not black and white. It's a situation where player aptitude is on a curve. You have some horrible players. You have some godly players. You have most players average.

They find something which works for them in question and doing the MSQ trials and instances and look no further. Why should they? For a large portion of players, FFXIV is a game.

Players who want to push themselves are a different personality. They are much more competitive than they average base player. They are also more willing to do research into their class and the content. These players see FFXIV as a sport.

There is a lot of common ground between the two types of players. It just takes patience from the "sports" crowd and a willingness to learn from the "games" crowd. Sadly, it's just human nature for people to dig in their heels because they think their way is the best. All you can do is laugh, and either leave, or jump on into the content with both feet.

Now, I actually like the idea of removing four man and eight man trials from the MSQ. Several friends have told me the requirement to do hard mode dungeons for the story was the reason they went back to World of Warcraft.

This confused me, at first, because even though hard mode is more difficult than normal mode, it isn't soul crushingly hard. It just makes you pay more attention.

Sure, I've wiped a few times along the way; but, I've improved enough* that I have down every hard mode challenge I've faced so far. But, I also understand that some players just want a game.

*Health and meds affect both my awareness and my reaction time. I still manage to enjoy the story and its challenges.

[Kaethra]

Absolutely not true. It's not black and white. It's a situation where player aptitude is on a curve. You have some horrible players. You have some godly players. You have most players average.

I'm going to put this into perspective.

Take the Red Mage class for example. Everytime you use a spell, dualcast pops up. Veraero and Verthunder have long cast times, they're meant to be used with dualcast in mind with a quick casting Jolt/II/Impact. In addition you have a melee combo that becomes enchanted when mana levels are high and balanced. I just described the basics of the class. After this comes the normal DPS stuff, do your rotation, avoid aoes, kill adds, do mechanics, and so forth. Finally use utility/roll actions as needed to buff the party, boost your mana, and so forth.

Have I said anything that is beyond what anyone is doing here? No I highly doubt it. Even people here who haven't played the class understand what I'm talking about. Yet I've seen people 'not get it'. I was in a dungeon about 3 days ago where a Red Mage was hard casting verthunder. This wasn't a prepull cast, this was near the end of the fight. The amount of damage to say the least that they were contributing was alot lower than mine to say the least.

What you describe as people taking the game more seriously takes 'they get it' to a whole nother level. Or so at least in your opinion it does. But does it really? These players do the math, do the testing on dummies. And find the BiS gear and materia to get ahead. But other than that. What are they doing that you can't or don't want to do? I know what it is, but suffice to say, knowing how to play the class is not part of it. Make no mistake, they are putting more work in that department than you are.

But are they actually heads and tails better? No. The average player knows to dodge AoEs. The average player knows to deal with adds. The average player knows all the mechanics they need to deal with. Sure they may struggle in a new encounter, but they'll learn it. The difference in performance isn't drastic. Just like some who 'don't get it' will still dodge stuff and try to do their role even if they've got no clue how to do the basics of their class.

The real difference is the organization. Those who play at the top level rely on statics and organization and teamwork of like minded players. If you're saying you're incapable of doing that, I'm going to call BS on that. You're responding to me in a clear and coherent manner. That alone tells us you're totally capable of doing the top end content of this game. You have the basics of your class. You know how to maximize the class through gear. And you're capable of intelligent communication. You're capable of learning mechanics (I assume, you've given me no reason to believe otherwise). What other ability are you lacking? I don't believe you do. And take it as a compliment if you wish.

A desire not to play in the highest content does not equal an incapability of it. Not wishing to adhere to a schedule to do content is NOT a sign of ineptitude.

There IS varying degrees within players who know what they are doing and those who don't. But within those two parameters, the differences are almost negligible. Again only limited by desire or outside influences (like physical handicaps or bad internet), or simply other priorities.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I'm going to put this into perspective.

*snip for brevity*

Kaethra, I agree there are players who play their characters atrociously. These players pay no attention to their ability descriptions nor their class mechanics. All I can say is these players look at FFXIV far differently than your typical forum poster. While we may not share the same level of commitment or the same views, we all care about our classes and the game. All I can offer is if you see someone not getting it, ask them if they'd like some tips on how to play better.

What you describe as people taking the game more seriously takes 'they get it' to a whole nother level. Or so at least in your opinion it does. But does it really? These players do the math, do the testing on dummies. And find the BiS gear and materia to get ahead. But other than that. What are they doing that you can't or don't want to do? I know what it is, but suffice to say, knowing how to play the class is not part of it. Make no mistake, they are putting more work in that department than you are.

You lost me at first; but, now I think I understand. You're saying the key to advancement is more than knowing your class and playing the game well. You have to be willing to reach out to other players and work together as a team to progress in the harder modes of FFXIV. Did I get that right?

If so, I agree. Being able to form up and play in an organized fashion is imperative in difficult content. When I used to run raids in WoW I insisted everyone use Ventrilo just so I could explain things quickly and herd my little chicks along through the mechanics.

As far as performance, I still think practicing your rotation and understanding the mechanics of an encounter will make a significant impact in a player's damage per second, healing performance, and tanking effectiveness. But, I also feel it is possible to sharpen the knife too much. There comes a point when it becomes too easy to obsess over the numbers which leads to a kind of paralysis when time comes to play, as well as, burn out.

What other ability are you lacking? I don't believe you do. And take it as a compliment if you wish.

Thanks! I try not to let my disability get in the way.

A desire not to play in the highest content does not equal an incapability of it. Not wishing to adhere to a schedule to do content is NOT a sign of ineptitude.

Very true. Since my life was turned upside down due to chronic unrelenting pain, I've been in the slow lane of life. But, I feel when the time comes for me to play with the "big boys" I'll do fine. Right now, I'm just happy as a little clam taking in all the sights, sounds, and tales as I go through ARR.

[Savagelf]

I just like to see more jobs like dps beastmaster and summoner that more complex and close to the ff games
plus blue mage jobs
summoner should be more like ff summoner

beastmaster i like see ability command the beautiful beast mobs and tamed them and raise them as pet up lvling them. i fine with mainline quest feature some dungeon and trials it a way test player metal to see if they up for the challange aswell

the devs should will to satified both hard core and casual players.

[Savagelf]

it true we do have issue with elitest players who are tell people how play

[Sylvina]

Many jobs are already too complex for their own good at max level, especially some DPS jobs. I enjoy a challenge but I want the challenge to be content and not learning my class. I want to be able to pick up and be able to play my class fairly well within a week and that doesn't happen with some dps classes in this game due to skill bloat which is still a problem in stormblood.

The less brainpower a player has to dedicate to their rotation and positionals the more they can focus on the mechanics in content and thus the more complex the actual content can be.