Tank dps harrasment

[Xerek]

I posted this in another thread, but it fits here...

"Muh DPS!"

Sadly, this statement is what FF XIV is built around, regardless of role. Tanks running in DPS stance, refusing to swap back to tank stance when the aggro table gets iffy. Claiming the DPS should use aggro deflection, then if the DPS do, they claim the DPS should hold back. Then the 101 flammable threads about healers that don't DPS. And, of course, you get DPS who, even if they see their tank is struggling, refuse to give up even a single point of DPS to help. The job of the tank is to DPS hard, oh, and maybe manage aggro. The job of a healer is to DPS hard, oh, and heal a little. The job of the DPS is to DPS balls to the wall no matter what. That's the current mindset, and parsers are a large reason why. It's not about efficiency, party symmetry, or heaven forbid having fun. It's about having that high number on the parser.

Now, don't get me wrong, the game itself definately carries some blame. Why are raiders so focused on DPS? Because raids have enrage timers and your raid group needs to wring every last drop of DPS out like a moist dishrag in the desert or you'll likely wipe. And the game allows tanks and healers to do too much damage. If it were a case where tanks and healers could contribute a little DPS here and there, people wouldn't focus on it as much. But currently in XIV tanks and healers can put out so much damage that there is a notable drop-off when they don't. We're not talking about shaving a minute or two off a dungeon, we're talking several. If a nervous peasant has a dagger, I'm not going to be as frustrated if he doesn't use it, but if that same peasant has a handgun, I'm going to get cranky if he isn't opening fire, even if I have an automatic rifle.

FFXIV's design is such that it encourages this DPS above all mentality. Couple that with parsers and it's easy to see why this game's playerbase as a whole has adopted a DPS > All Else mindset. Of course there are exceptions. As a healer, I prioritize healing and weave in DPS where I can. As a tank, I will do everything in my power to regain lost aggro, including swapping back into tank stance if needed and sacrificing DPS. As a DPS I will use all my emnity flushes and even ease up on the DPS if the tank is honestly struggling. But I know the prevalent mindset doesn't match mine. Sadly, FF XIV would require a core philosophical shift to address this issue. Tank and healer damage would have to be slashed to levels that make it a nice, small bonus, not a signifigant contribution to total instance damage...which would immediately cause wailing, screaming, torches and pitchforks. So, sadly, I expect the "Muh DPS!" mindset to continue for quite some time.

[HazyAssaulter]

It’s not, and people don’t care about performance in dungeons as long as you are doing what you are required to do: as a tank, hold hate, don’t cleave the party, and use your cooldowns. People that expect orange-tier DPS in dungeons are ridiculous. The content doesn’t call for any of that; it’s casual content. As long as the run goes smoothly and ends relatively quickly (sub-30 minutes I would say would be the general consensus for a “quick run” for a leveling dungeon, sub-20 for expert dungeons), no one cares about things like DPS in dungeons. The people that do aren’t worth listening to.

The only place where party or raid DPS matters is Ex trials and Savage. And even then, the checks aren’t tight enough to demand 99th percentile performance from everyone.

For the record, I specifically clarified savage and ex trials, if that's the reason you're saying my mindset isn't acceptable

[HyoMinPark]

For the record, I specifically clarified savage and ex trials, if that's the reason you're saying my mindset isn't acceptable

I edited my post to clarify my position, because 1,000 arbitrary limit is arbitrary, but I don’t care if a tank drops stance or not in Ex trials or Savage. As long as they aren’t dying to stupid stuff, using their CDs, and holding hate, I don’t care what they do. Certainly, if they want to improve, I will advocate for them to drop stance, and for the OT to provoke/shirk off-cooldown, but in PF settings for these things, I don’t care.

Personally, I don’t tank often, but I drop stance because I dislike staying in Grit. But that’s my playstyle. I don’t enforce it on others because it’s not my place.

The only tanks I really advocate to drop stance are the ones in my static, because it’s my static. Not PF/DF/RF.

[Xerek]

For the record, I specifically clarified savage and ex trials, if that's the reason you're saying my mindset isn't acceptable

That's where people are objecting. The OP specifically mentioned dungeons and hunts, not EX or Savage, yet you replied as you did.

[Hannia]

Why should it be acceptable for people to have to carry you if you refuse to improve? Asking for a shin ex perspective

why are you assuming I'm being carried? I have cleared it MULTIPLE times with no deaths or failing ANY mechanic, I have a macro to mark everyone up and I put waypoints down in P3.... your judged me bassed off what? that's what I'm talking about just because my ffxivlogs (which once again I have no clue how I am even on it but only have 11 total events none are current) say I'm grey 7 on dps that means I'm being carried? if I'm not letting my party die, I'm doing tank swaps correct and not just flat out eating a tank buster with my face how is that being carried?

[Fynlar]

Take that dissatisfaction and use it as motivation to improve yourself. The only person holding you back is you.

The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

Personally, I think that if you play a tank, you should only play with friends or fc members and completely disregard df and pf if you can.

Why would I do that when one of the main draws of playing tank is getting near instant queues on almost everything?

IMO if you have friends to queue with that's a reason to play DPS, because otherwise you'll be dealing with awful queue times on most things.

[ElHeggunte]

Let's cut the BS. [...]

Ah yes, the ol' thinly veiled "expecting more than the barest minimum is elitism" argument. By your silly logic, players should be able to go into dungeons and literally auto-attack mobs to death and no one should be allowed to say anything or remove them, because after all that's "enough to get things done" even if it winds up taking you 50 minutes to clear something that shouldn't take 15.

Just because you can do the absolute barest minimum and still manage to clear content (largely because everyone else in the group picked up your slack) doesn't mean you should nor is it grounds to get upset if someone removes you from their group for being a sandbag.

The next time you see someone dragging their feet or if you decide not to put forth real effort, ask yourself this: if the other 4/7/23 people all halfassed it too, would you still be able to clear the content? If the answer is "No" then you understand exactly why your attitude is problematic.

The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

Well I mean, if someone is regularly being removed from different, unrelated groups for the same reason every time it isn't hard to draw a simple and accurate conclusion that the person being kicked is indeed holding themselves back for refusal to fix what they know everyone else sees as a problem.

[HazyAssaulter]

What's with the attitude Dio?

No attitude, just literally telling it how it is. OP seems to think that everyone should adjust to his personal "play style," but if he wants to get far in extremes or Savage he needs a wake up call

[HazyAssaulter]

why are you assuming I'm being carried? I have cleared it MULTIPLE times with no deaths or failing ANY mechanic, I have a macro to mark everyone up and I put waypoints down in P3.... your judged me bassed off what? that's what I'm talking about just because my ffxivlogs (which once again I have no clue how I am even on it but only have 11 total events none are current) say I'm grey 7 on dps that means I'm being carried? if I'm not letting my party die, I'm doing tank swaps correct and not just flat out eating a tank buster with my face how is that being carried?

If you are parsing grey on fflogs, you are being carried by those in your party who are not. No assumptions being made