In your darkest hour: DRK's identity crisis

[Reynhart]

Maybe the answer is instead of "something unique to contribute," its "contributing something in a unique way".

I think that it was their goal when they designed the numerous DPS. Sure, there are differences in their raw DPS output, but more importantly, you don't play a BLM like you play a BRD or a DRG. Too bad this wasn't the case with tanks.

For example, they could have made a tank that doesn't rely on combos...give WAR no damage reduction skill but more variations of Thrill Of Battle+Convalessence to fit with the massive HP pool theme, and, at least, making their tank stances all act differently, even if they bring the same eHP. If Defiance increased all healing received by 25%, it would be mathematically the same as ShO, but with a unique flavor.

[Eyvhokan]

The angsty thing is more of a stereotype/generalisation.

Notably, Cloud goes through accepting himself similarly you and your shadow in the DRK50 quest.

[MiniPrinny]

For me, the first issue of DRK is that no previous incarnation has been a tank, so they had to built it from scratch as opposed to PLD and WAR where they could draw concept and skills from previous FF games. (And, several times, DRK was the exact opposite of tank, sacrificing survivability for more damage.)

DRK has actually always been tank-like, with their self-sacrificial nature being a tool rather than their defining concept.

As early as FFIV Cecil's ability, Darkness either doubled his damage output for 3 turns at the cost of 10% of his HP for each attack or gave him an AoE attack that costs HP because it was calculated like his high physical attack, compared to Rydia in the early game, Cecil is a beast. His 3D version, which doubled his attack was also great since it worked when a boss was vulnerable and left him available for item usage.

The next time we see DRK it's that weird bastardization that was in FFXI. Probably where a lot of the current problems stem from actually. The crying of scythes I still hear from time to time. (Since when is a scythe a good weapon?) FFXI basically looked at DRK in FFIV did Cecil's one shtick to the extreme: HP to attack. They also added in some low level black magic spells.

And then in FFX-2, we finally see DRK as what it should have been way back in FFIV if Cecil actually stuck with it. DRK is at its strongest ever here, and I really wish more people liked this game because the way they show certain jobs off from a gameplay perspective is masterful. DRK here is not only durable, boasting immunity to many common status effects, but also has a suite of potent black magic spells and two ways to sacrifice HP: Darkness for group damage, and the more powerful single-target Charon.

And since FFX-2, we've had FFT: War of the Lions introduce DRK as a mobile heavily armed fighter that sacrificed a bit of Knight's (PLD) durability and support for a set of devastating actions with equally devastating debuffs attached. While Bravely Default and Breavely Second both use DRK in its default setting, durable, but risk-taking.

To sum up, DRK has never been soft, their self-sacrificial skills exist as tools for them to use, while their sub-theme of debuffs has been ignored. It's like because FFX-2 bombed, they've been afraid to reintroduce DRK has a debuff/buff focused Job like it was in FFXI and FFX-2. Instead focusing on the risk/reward gameplay that frankly, does not work in an MMORPG as XI "artfully" proved.

Maybe the answer is instead of "something unique to contribute," its "contributing something in a unique way". We could all have the same versatility, dps, mitigation, sustain, utility, etc... but it is in contributed differently. It correlates to the overall play style of a class which i think has more to do with a classes identity than our toolkits which are arguably the same things with different animations and names. Traits could have played a major roll in this for tanks but instead are not intuitive. Imagine if every tank class responded to a critical hit differently, a parry differently, or even low hp differently. I believe this is where class identity could have started but that's just my opinion.

This, a thousand times this. Class/Job identity should never be about "having something unique" it should be about "having something to give in a unique way." I think a good example would be Machinist and Ninja. Both are dexterity based Jobs with high burst phases and group support. Both offer an invaluable damage boost. However, Ninjas give their boost for a mere 10s every minute at a higher potency. While Machinists give 27-30s at 6% every 2 minutes. Both are great to have, so much so that for speed clears, people take both. Which is a problem that could be fixed as simply as making a boss immune to vulnerability up for a little bit, but that's a different topic.

Or take Summoner and Red Mage. Both offer party-wide damage boosts (Embolden and Devotion), both can raise downed allies, and both deal sustained damage with burst phases. Yet they're very different Jobs, since Summoner loses out on single target healing and rapid resurrections for stronger damage, not to mention the gameplay differences.

We can even see this with Paladin and Warrior now to a minor degree. Paladin has a broader support suite, but sacrifices some damage and a bit of personal mitigation to have that support suite. Warrior meanwhile has a very small support suite, but makes up for it with their damage, higher personal mitigation, and their one big support move having the ability to be exceptionally strong, but leaves them vulnerable afterwards.

[Reynhart]

Cecil is a beast.

As a PLD, yes. As a DRK, he has the worst stat growth of basically every character in FF IV. And frankly, when comparing to a BLM and a WHM, there's not much competition on sturdyness.
And having high pysical damage is exactly what would make you end as a DPS in an MMO...even if PLD-Cecil also did more damage than everybody else...

Other dark incarnation

The staple of the job is still losing HP to deal great damage. This is not what you want for a tank...and precisely why they made FFXIV iteration spend MP instead of HP.

[MiniPrinny]

As a PLD, yes. As a DRK, he has the worst stat growth of basically every character in FF IV. And frankly, when comparing to a BLM and a WHM, there's not much competition on sturdiness.
And having high physical damage is exactly what would make you end as a DPS in an MMO...even if PLD-Cecil also did more damage than everybody else....

Have you played FFIV? Or did you just look up the stats? DRK Cecil, until he stops being a thing around level 20~ is unmatched defensively and second only to Yang offensively. He has by default the highest effective HP up to that point and only Yang, who can not wear heavy armor, beats him for HP and physical damage output. And while he can't properly tank until he becomes a PLD, he's by no means a slouch. DRK Cecil falls off long, long, long past when you should still be using him. That he keeps pace with Yang until the late 20s for damage and health is more than enough grinding for even the worst of players. So no, DRK Cecil never was, or will be, terrible. Don't use raw stat numbers like that.

Edit: Also, I figured I'd mention. In Dissidia, where Cecil isn't gimped by lore and suggestive stat gains, his DRK half is more than strong enough for what it does. A good note to mention is that Cecil didn't become a Paladin because he wanted to, he became a Paladin to seek redemption in the eyes of Mysidia and to have the power to overcome the darkness threatening his world. Not exactly "Paladin" attitude there.

[Eyvhokan]

Well in Cecil's case, DRK are like the baddies and it wasn't his permanent class.

[Lyth]

Some points:

Cloud
It's hard not to draw a connection to Cloud. Our /bstance, /vstance, and the male DRK /cpose are all homages to him, much like other jobs reference well-known characters in the series.

The Mystic Knight reference comes from an uncited section of the unofficial FF wiki. I'm not sure of its validity. That being said, it's worth noting that there has historically been a lot of similarity between Mystic Knights and Dark Knights. The key difference is in the choice of resource (MP vs. HP) and the theme (elemental vs. darkness). As a matter of fact, FF3 historically listed Mystic Knight as one of its jobs, and it was later replaced by Dark Knight in the remake. To make matters more complex, FFXIV's DRK straddles the line between the two, using MP and blood to power dark magic, while stealing HP, MP, and blood. But no two Final Fantasy games are completely identical in their implementation. There are no absolute rules, only themes.

If you'll think back to Cloud's fighting style across different media portrayals, it's again hard not to see parallels. Souleater is a stylised Climhazzard. A lot of the later scenes of Advent Children feature him drawing in purplish energy into himself before launching into a flurry of strikes. Rewatching the scenes, I wonder if we couldn't see Omnislash implemented someday as a sort of wildfire style burst window which counted up your DA sword strikes.

DRK's playstyle not an unusual aesthetic for later FF games, especially in the wake of the original Playstation era, to be sure. You see it in XV's Noctis as well. My point here is that it carries nostalgia value, and nostalgia plays an important part in drawing the player in. This is not any MMO. It's a Final Fantasy MMO. I'd love to see more emphasis placed on that.

Greatswords
Two-handed swords have a long legacy in Final Fantasy. FF6 makes a visual distinction between larger 'Knight Swords' and traditional one-handed swords based on the swing animation (horizontal vs. vertical), but doesn't really elaborate on it further. FF7 made the aesthetic mainstream, and interestingly enough, FFT and the world of Ivalice was where they really came into their own (in no small part due to the magic swordsman aesthetic). It became standard practice for every iconic end-game sword, be it Defender, Save the Queen, Apocalypse, Ragnarok, and Ultima Weapon, to be a two-hander. The terminology varies slightly from game to game, but it's functionally the same.

Balance
As much as I like the idea of a Deus Ex style balance in which there are multiple approaches to the same problem, there are some fundamental obstacles. Take Hallowed, for example. It completely negates all incoming damage. There isn't an alternate way to achieve the same effect. But if you made it into a role action and made it universal, the job would lose something that made it unique.

I think it's okay for tanks to have weaknesses. It's okay to find yourself wishing in the moment that you were on a different tank to deal with a tough situation. I'm not a fan of this mentality that "X has an ability, so I need to have that ability too". The problem is that the exchange of abilities has been a one-way relationship. There are definitely occasions where you will definitely miss having a WAR or a PLD. You don't really get that sense with DRK anymore, after Stormsblood.

[Reynhart]

Have you played FFIV? Or did you just look up the stats? DRK Cecil, until he stops being a thing around level 20~ is unmatched defensively and second only to Yang offensively. He has by default the highest effective HP up to that point and only Yang

Again, at that point, your party members are all mages except Yang, so having the highest HP, the best defense and the second highest offense is not such a tremendous feat. When compared to every other physical fighter, DRK Cecil is the weakest.

It's hard not to draw a connection to Cloud. Our /bstance, /vstance, and the male DRK /cpose are all homages to him, much like other jobs reference well-known characters in the series.

It's called wolverine publicity and the reason why every melee DPS draws a Buster Sword for their LB2, even when fighting bare-handed, long before DRK was created in XIV.

[shao32]

Again, at that point, your party members are all mages except Yang, so having the highest HP, the best defense and the second highest offense is not such a tremendous feat. When compared to every other physical fighter, DRK Cecil is the weakest.

DRK Ceil is the stronger job in every aspect in that part of the game, ffiv is a linear game,DRK Cecil dont need to scale properly bcs you cant complete the game as a DRK, in fact none of the jobs outside of PLD cecil, kain, rosa rydia and edge have a proper and fair stat progresion bcs only those 5 chars need it at the end of the game, Cecil DRK is worse that PLD cecil bcs DRK Cecil is only relevant on the begining of the story and he is pretty strong enough compared to yang, tella and palom- porom.

[Chrono_Rising]

I agree with just about everything you say. Basically a middle of the road tank is the concept which is proving to be fatal to dark knight. In HW we were a strong defensive MT who could dish out healthy damage, now we are doing less than either role. We need a dark knight abilities back, but with the recent Yoshi P interviews I doubt they will change much before 5.0 unless there is a strong community backlash.

Balance
As much as I like the idea of a Deus Ex style balance in which there are multiple approaches to the same problem, there are some fundamental obstacles. Take Hallowed, for example. It completely negates all incoming damage. There isn't an alternate way to achieve the same effect. But if you made it into a role action and made it universal, the job would lose something that made it unique.

I disagree that there aren't alternate ways to do this with Hallowed Ground.

A Dark Flair: Switch MP and HP Pools, mp pool cannot be reduced below 1. After 10 seconds MP and HP Pools switch. Effect basically gives you a smaller pool of HP, but shelters your main pool.

A Warrior Flair: HP hits 1: Damage taken converted to HP restored.