Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

I mean, bravo, you have me sold, save for the fact (once more) that I still think we have a better chance at the Devs giving Raise to BLM than removing it from RDM/SMN.

And the bottom line is that if they decide to keep it on the other two, the role will STILL be imbalanced, no matter how much we hate the idea of 20 raises in a fight on paper. Then what? We take the "moral high ground" and boycott it while everyone else laughs and uses tools at their disposal? No, that would be just as foolish.


The very fact that it exists means that it should be considered. Leaving it "as is" is 100% the wrong thing to do.

[Remedi]

I don't see how you can really say that the devs have a better chance of giving raise to BLM than doing otherwise when they stated they won't do it.

[Llugen]

...stated that they wont do it**** before deltascape savage prog even happened, and by extension therefore before the precedent of rez dispenser debut in the raid scene.


I don't know why that's so tough for everyone to grasp. It's like them saying "hey we're never going to make an alliance raid roulette" in 2.XX and then now, SEVEN ALLIANCE RAIDS LATER, they're like "hmm yeah maybe we should do that after all because (insert multitude of reasons here)". New information/perspective has arrived on the scene, and SIGNIFICANT new information, at that. (Turns out we really can clear V4S with 7 Raises, whadayaknow)


The dawn of "rez dispenser" is why this is "suddenly" such a pressing issue to begin with; as I've said several times in this thread already, before when it was just SMN and BLM, there really wasn't an issue; SMN had to devour a ton of its own MP (which at that time was translatable into damage, not to mention burn Swiftcast which at that time was basically used on cooldown for Shadow Flare) to use the Raise and BLM was still meaningful to take as such anyway. The precedent has changed since then, and it was with the old precedent in mind that they made the statement.

[Remedi]

No they knew about it, The interwiew was not 4 months before SB release it was in the month after the release (raid testing started in april btw) everyone knew about how strong it was and the question was made because of how strong it was and they acknowledged it was strong but said that dps would suffer because of it and that it wouldn't make sense to add it to BLM.

Now that to me tells that they do not think raise as a defining trait of the caster role and that they underestimated the strength of it.

Which makes me believe that they'd rather moderate it in some way before giving access to BLM sealing the tombstone of caster forever in that regards and making their work 100% harder when design bosses.

[Llugen]

I feel like your evidence supports my argument more than it supports yours.

Their "testing" of the content is irrelevant, as we established when we said it's impossible to "overvalue" something, there is only usage of something or lack thereof. The community decided it was invaluable, and therefore it was.

With this in mind, if the players are going to shun BLM for progression then it makes the most sense to add it to the group than to kill the group, particularly since they thought that rez dispenser was apparently "perfectly balanced".

[Remedi]

Maybe because I don't get what is your point exactly, you used an unrealistic example about alliance roulette where they never stated they would never do it to my memory and even so it's not like they had that conversation extremely far away from the start of prog.

Fact is they didn't said we'll consider it they said NO!, which means either they lose their face or they proceed in another way or maybe we just acknowledge that BLM will never be prog optimal which as I said can be a possibility if they make it stronger in other areas. Remember that Lucrezia started with a RDM then went SMN and then double ranged, which means that it's possible to pull off something like this if they make magical jobs functional.

[Llugen]

The fact that they "said no" and we are still here discussing it is evidence enough that their stubborn attitude regarding it should be changed. This isn't difficult. Furthermore, everything we have said still does not deny the fact that the statement was made before deltascape savage prog. This is significant, whether you'd personally like to admit it or not.

They absolutely said they weren't interested in putting in an alliance raid roulette, it was back at the beginning of 3.x when Void Ark was just first coming out, before Wiping City. Now here we are.


There is a major difference between "prog optimal" and "can meaningfully compete". Like I said, no one expects BLM to be the strongest prog class, but if my options are "suffer heavily or play RDM/SMN", then it's a pretty shitty design situation. Right now we are absolutely under that adage, and again no matter how much damage they give BLM it cannot outweigh four raises over the course of 160 seconds (my SMN firsthand share).


Having access to an option (while the others have their current options) as well as increased damage and reliable procs would be enough for me personally and hopefully many BLM mains to justify playing the job over switching to rez dispenser. It even still might not be "as good", but the gap between how good they are would be significantly lower (read: more balanced). It goes from groups saying "BLM doesn't have recovery tools man, come on don't shaft us" to BLMs saying "Well now it does, they might not be AS good, but deal with it because it's better than nothing and stronger in other areas."


And to be blunt, it was yoship who said "no" so vehemently, and in our collectively honest opinion, even if BLM is his "pet class", he might not exactly be the strongest player on the job and/or be the best judge of what it might need balance-wise. (please don't smite me)

[Remedi]

First I need you to direct me to that quote about raid alliance roulette because I don't recall them saying they would never do it only that they had no interest at the time, though as a comparison is not that valid since that is more a System problem than a real gameplay problem.

Second if you say that no1 expect BLM to be the strongest in prog than he doesn't really need it, it can fulfill some other role like beign Good at speed running for example.
I think I spoke enough of why the caster role should not have that easy and frequent access I won't digress again

I would say that you think that continuing on this road they might think that they are wrong and they'll fix it.
Well I believe that they might think that this is a tantrum from not having the same toys as the other jobs which could lead to them overlooking the problem in the worst scenario.

I really don't believe there's a indication of them poitning towards them adding a raise to BLM and frankly speaking it won't happen this expansion, the only spell they've added mid expansion was Stoneskin 2 in 2.5! So all of this is talking about something that might happen in 5.0, which might aswell remove verraise for what we know.
I think it would be more productive from us to telling them that if they believe that the BLM should be the turret selfish mage, they should make it so at least

[Llugen]

"the turret selfish mage" is pointless when in its role there are jobs that have recovery tools and the "selfish" DPS can come from another source (namely, SAM).

This cannot be stated more simply.



I'm pretty sure it was either a fan fest live letter or just a regular stream live letter but it was around the time of Void Ark.

I'm very well aware of your stance on it and "agree" in full, save for the few caveats that I've already illustrated (longer fights, change of precedent, unwillingness to consider rez dispenser/SMN resurrection nerfs). There's not much more that needs to be said, it could honestly go either way. The only wrong thing would be to leave it the way that it is. "tantrum for not having toys" by which you mean "needs insulin to survive and isn't getting it", I suppose yeah you could call that a "tantrum" lol

The mere fact that you would consider (or think that the devs might consider) this entire thread a "tantrum" (save for maybe our tone in a few of the posts, my own included) is very discouraging. If you are able to glean ANYTHING from what I've said, I'd hope that it would be that there is absolutely a problem and we are very much in the right for stating it. Besides, they WANT our feedback, and nothing that we have said has been unfounded. "Tantrum" is certainly a stretch.


They may not have "added" skills outside of stoneskin II (which you could argue "was a function already in the game", which you could certainly ALSO argue about Raise, albeit not on the same job or in the same fashion) but they have overhauled them; shield swipe in 2.x got a pretty meaningful overhaul in I think 2.48. Given the state of BLM I could see them overhauling Freeze as suggested, and if they really decided to wake up with a change-of-heart, they could remove Sleep and put it in that slot. That being said, given the circumstances, adding a skill wouldn't be ridiculous, since the kit is already very few buttons.

I certainly don't see them adding it in 4.2, I just hope that this is something that they will seriously consider over the next year at the very least. I'm in it for the long haul.

[Remedi]

The existance of SAM and RDM/SMN having different tools does not preclude BLM to be made a functional selfish job.