Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

This whole lore debate continues to be a side-show. It's obvious that some people regard the lore as being extremely rigid, while others see room for interpretation.

The questions I ask myself first are the following:

1. Do I want to have a resurrection skill as BLM?
2. Do I believe that having one is the only way to regain a competitive edge vs. other Job choices?

This first sentiment is the most eloquently put thing I've read in this whole thread, bravo.


As far as the questions are concerned, the answer to the first one is pretty much irrelevant, because of the second one. Furthermore, I think the second one needs rephrasing. It may not be "the only way" to regain a competitive edge, but it would be a SIGNIFICANT boon, particularly for progression's sake. See also: my "let the RDMs be and let the BLMs be" anecdote.


To be completely honest, given a magic wand to create a perfect world, I'm not sure that I personally "want" a Raise ability on BLM either, I'd much rather side with Remedi in Raise being less accessible by removing it completely from the caster pool. My staunch arguing in this thread at large has been about the sake of role balance, which is why BLM needs to have it. So really, the second question becomes not "do I believe" but "for the sake of balance of the game at high-end, should it".

Assuming they allow RDM/SMN to keep their Raise abilities and BLM is not given one, no matter how much better damage/more mobile BLM becomes, it's one less recovery tool for the group for having chosen BLM over the other two casters. No other role in the game is in this rather unique scenario; both MCH/BRD have meaningful utility (do not underestimate the value of Dismantle), and the melee role not only gets two slots "guaranteed" but ALL of their "recovery" tools are additional actions (save for Mantra, I suppose). This is why this problem exists in the caster role, and why it has been exacerbated so heavily since 4.0 launch with the release of RDM (by extension, expanding the caster role options).









So, the answers to your initial questions, for me, are honestly, no and no. But consider the following questions, very similar but painted differently:

1. Do I want role balance by giving BLM access to a Raise ability?
2. Do I believe BLM having access to a Raise ability would factor in SIGNIFICANTLY for its competitive edge particularly during raid progression?

The answers to those two questions are yes and yes, at least for me, and I would warrant a large portion of the endgame community would agree, "lore sideshow" aside.

[Remedi]

Unless other areas gets improved you won't achieve nothing by giving raise to BLM outside of maybe farming parties.
During progression RDM and SMN are better not simply because of raise but overall as you also stated because of easier to handle while still achieving good dmg and providing support.

Even if the raise was a 3 min OGCD one it's opportunity window is much smaller than the alternatives and it also has the same problems of Mana shift barring the need to be in umbral ice (though interfering with astral uptime is problematic to an extent).

Also for a class that even when played perfectly to meet 96-98% uptime on ultimate it still falls short on the overall dmg the main problem to be fixed lies there, giving raise will not make BLM attractive.
It does give it the possibility but you'll just have that since you'll keep all the stronger weaknesses that you have right now.

[Llugen]

...giving raise will not make BLM attractive.

Raise alone will not make BLM attractive, certainly, but with additional mobility/damage/"utility" that they plan in the near future, yes it will.

The statement instead should be "NOT giving Raise will not make BLM attractive ENOUGH especially when it comes to progression", in my opinion. And in Sfia's, see also: his anecdote about "raw damage" vs. tools.

And again, call me a broken record, but it is far better to have and not need than need and not have, and even a 180s recast is meaningful if both your healers hit the floor, at least compared to the current situation, which is nil (again, we do not want another rez dispenser).

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Raise alone will not make BLM attractive, certainly, but with additional mobility/damage/"utility" that they plan in the near future, yes it will.

Well to be fair, if Black Mages get all the non Raise fixes they wanted (and/or more) would they even want a Raise at that point? I'm not particularly against it as I've reached the point where I realized people enjoying and playing a game designed for fun is a tad more important than sticking super strictly to lore. On the subject of enjoyment though, Raising is not an enjoyable task, it's one of like two things I don't like about Red Mage, the fact that me playing Red Mage gives people more license to not feel bad about screwing up, sure it's useful short term but it also makes playing DPS more like playing secondary babysitter.

[Remedi]

Raise alone will not make BLM attractive, certainly, but with additional mobility/damage/"utility" that they plan in the near future, yes it will.

The statement instead should be "NOT giving Raise will not make BLM attractive ENOUGH especially when it comes to progression", in my opinion. And in Sfia's, see also: his anecdote about "raw damage" vs. tools.

And again, call me a broken record, but it is far better to have and not need than need and not have, and even a 180s recast is meaningful if both your healers hit the floor, at least compared to the current situation, which is nil (again, we do not want another rez dispenser).

Again call me a broken record but both healers falling to the floor should be a failure condition of the game and not something you can recover from in any easy way.

Raise should not become the alluring trait of the caster role.

[Lina_Slayer]

I think we should accept that we are not great for progression due to how the class is designed, even if we get a res and better mobility I can guarantee we are not going to be as good at ressing as the other casters and we are not going to be as mobile as well, meaning for blind, hardcore progression we'll always be at least a little behind.

However if having a BLM on the party means the group has a higher damage potential people will accept and be willing to work with us, because of how important damage is in this game, this is also the reason why I think we should push for offensive utility, as it makes us much more wanted in a group.

[dinnertime]

That's what people have been trying to say.

This thread is just going around in circles again. Let's be real, the chances of BLM getting a Raise is none. If not, it's very slim. Learn to accept it's not going to happen. BLM isn't designed to be a support DPS like either RDM or SMN.

Besides, what makes Jobs like BRD, MCH, NIN, DRG and SMN so wanted in groups is because of offensive utility. Offensive. That is what BLM needs the most along with better damage and mobility.

[Truvy]

Raise is about utility. BLM as a DPS has far lessor party utility than other casters and other DPS. Cast time is either 2 slow to really contribute to trash or it becomes a real juggle at times in boss fights with mechanics to keep your Polyglot going. Let alone, I provide nothing really for party support.

The necromancy bit would be festive and I really do love the concept, but I don't see it happening. To enhance BLM i'd like to see one of the following (just one):

• * Reduce timer of Triplecast to 30s
  * Add a 10s reduction to Triplecast for each IV spell cast
  * Remove all movement restrictions from spells. Instead, scale potency based on the time you spent stationary.
  * Add a party utility spell:
  -- VOID VEIL - Creates a bubble of void essence (5s) that protects all players within. Can only be used with active ley lines. Bubble replaces the area of ley lines when cast and adds remaining duration of ley lines to bubble.

[Llugen]

I think we should accept that we are not great for progression due to how the class is designed...

No, I won't, because you know what that means? That means playing SMN or RDM for progression, and that's basically end-of-story. See also: let the RDMs be and let the BLMs be anecdote. This concept may not affect you, or many, but it definitely does affect me/many others. "Just go back to BLM after we have it cleared!" I can hear it now.

I just don't want to be stuck playing RDM/SMN again, man. Or worse yet, BRD.



The developers do their best to balance DPS checks to be doable by at least MOST sensible standard comps, so you can't justify "BLM 'raw damage' is 'required' for this check" by that logic alone, plus at the highest-end of progression, it's the utility classes that stack together for the best total GROUP damage, not individual classes. See also: utility IS damage anecdote.

Worded differently, a "selfish DPS" class will shine when the player on the class is solid but the rest of the party is not as skilled at the game, particularly with AST feeding/DRG tethering, however in more skilled groups (read: high-end progression), focus on one player is less valuable and instead it's the total group damage that needs the most consideration (read: sacrificing/clipping ONE GCD to bring up a dead player is a SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER group damage loss than having a player remain dead for a long period).






And @Remedi: I'm well aware of your stance on it, but the "bottom line" is more than likely going to be that they aren't going to remove rez dispenser/SMN Resurrection, so yep, here we still are. I don't think the following can be understated:

Raise already IS an alluring trait of the caster role, which is why this thread exists in the first place.

[Remedi]

and that's wrong.
When something is so powerful that an entire role should have because otherwise is shafted is best to simply get rid of it especially because how can be abused in the right situations.
Do you think they can really design fights where raise won't be useful?
It is Ok for statics that want to prog with double ranged to change to one of the casters because of prog?
It is ok for triple melee to do it?.

I wouldn't say what is more likely to happen, but since they have already been adamant about giving raise to BLM, I think we are more likely to see a change do raise then them caving in to this demand and frankly they better not do it, this is not helpful to the caster role, making verraise dulcasted was a mistake all along and should be rectified at the root, not spread, If they cave to this request it'll be a terrible precedent that will haunt the balance team forever because at that point there should be no reason to give nonsensical abilities to everyone.

The caster role needs to function without the allure of raise, this is all smokes and mirrors that will divert the attention to the real problem

Also this argument will pop up for ANYTHING that is felt as mandatory by the community.
They fix raise? Well I suppose MP song will be next, fix that mmmh maybe every1 should get shadewalker and trick and so on
Point is at high end there'll always be some sort of imbalances because of the nature of competitive play and frankly SE said that in their interwiew and honestly that's hardly surpraising