Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Kabooa]

That leaves movement, which is the real problem. The current raids are just not very friendly to turret-like jobs. Either the black mage needs to know the fight really well and move accordingly (which is why you take a black mage into prog parties), or the black mage needs more ways to move without interrupting the rotation. Part of this is already solved with Triplecast and Swiftcast, but not entirely. There's also the problem of potencies just straight-up not being high enough.

Excepting Unending Coil, the entirety of Savage Delta has 98-99% uptime. It may not be turret friendly but proper uses of the tools make that mostly irrelevant.

[LeeraSorlan]

snip.

for some reason you seem to think im in disagreement with you about raise. let me clarify... I DO NOT THINK BLM SHOULD HAVE A RAISE, i think its stupid and pointless. and yes, if the devs want the BLM to be like the BLM in the past, thats fine, i accept and agree with that decision, BUT HOWEVER, if the devs decided one day that they changed there mind, IT IS IN EVERY RIGHT FOR THEM TO CHANGE THAT, regardless of whatever lore you want it to be.

Thats my point. Do not give BLM raise, please. But lore is not a good reason as to why they shouldnt. they shouldnt because its stupid and pointless, Lore is irrelevant.

[TinyRedLeaf]

But lore is not a good reason as to why they shouldnt. they shouldnt because its stupid and pointless, Lore is irrelevant.

Well, sure, of course, if you insist on putting it that way. But it will be seen as a bad decision by the community, if the lingering feelings of ill-will over this game's particular implementation of summoner is anything to go by.

Evidently lore does matter for many fans, and if the team deviates too far from what "Final Fantasy" has come to mean for many people, you can expect a very vocal backlash.

I would also point out the irony of arguing against the relevance of lore, because the general expectation for black mages to do the most raw damage is at least partly based on precedents established in earlier Final Fantasy titles.

So, this ultimately boils down to a fundamental disagreement over core design philosophies. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[LeeraSorlan]

snip

People will complain about anything tho. Im not entirely disagreeing, i like my lore they have created just as much as anyone, im just saying, following the lore isnt something they have to do, especially not if it would improve the game from a gameplay standpoint (not that this BLM raise thing will, because it wont, js) Black mage is black mage, they have made it clear what they want it to be, and i dont disagree with that, but it could change on the drop of a hat at any point if they chose to do so. Would people be upset? yeah, some people would, some people wouldnt, thats the case for everything.

All in all, im not really disagreeing that lore is important, im just disagreeing that the dev team doesnt HAVE to exclude something because of lore, they can work around it

[Llugen]

I'm really quite confused at how people keep saying "it would be pointless" to add it. What does that even mean? How would it be pointless? If you have the tool you can use it when you need to use it, or better yet, when you HAVE to use it, and if the situation doesn't arise, then great! Under what circumstances would it be "pointless" to have? I legitimately am curious and don't understand this logic.

[Fannah]

Thanks Ninjas don't all think so same "I am dps, so I don't use Shade walker/Smoke Screen (and Goad, before it becomes an action role)"
Classes are something with abilities you have to use to make your team succeed. Think of healers asked to dps when they can. So help your team when you can. Don't you never use Apocatastasis? Mana Shift?

I understand how it would be disappointing to have Raise, as it's really relieving to don't have to think about them as we are not responsible for them to be still dead when we could have raised them.

Llugen, in the end, you should get they don't care about how good/efficient it would be, it matters to the community the BLM to be an exception about being a caster without Raise. This is not what makes the class fun, no one picked BLM to think "and I'm gonna Raise people" to the point they refuse to see a balance done in that way, and they better see an opportunity to say "ok balance it in the way they accept it's worth to bring a BLM not having Raise, so yea, upgrade our overall dps in a way or another" . That's all major part of people want to hear (me included, as I said).

When there was fights about "machinist sucks" vs "machinist is ok, but why not some upgrades after all", the 1rst team admited they actually exagerated some things thinking SE would react to them and not to those trying to remain objective about how to upgrade them. So they were like "they suck" on purpose. I mean it's the same here, people don't want Raise on BLM, even without dmg buff to still enjoy playing their BLM without having a single time the weight of responsibility of raising people on their shoulder. They just wanna be in their own side, casting in their ley lines, and I understand, that's what is fun about the BLM, you hurt, things explose, and the rare times you lower your dps is to actually upgrade it after. So if you want a Raise on the BLM, I guess it will have to come with a 800 potency dmg hit on the boss on top of it, if you see what I mean.

PS : When I think about Black Mages, I think about Vivi and his whole "race" from FFIX. And what does Vivi does? Fire/Meteor/Apocalypse/Blizzard/Thunder etc. Dagga and Eiko will raise the others. Vivi sometimes raise people... --> when they are all dead and he has a Phoenix Down, which is what everyone can use (so equal responsibility), while having a Raise will be a responsability for BLM unlike all the others.

Other than that, if people die at a mechanic, I don't see why they should keep going, they failed. You don't get your Master after failing the 3 first years.

[LeeraSorlan]

I'm really quite confused at how people keep saying "it would be pointless" to add it. What does that even mean? How would it be pointless? If you have the tool you can use it when you need to use it, or better yet, when you HAVE to use it, and if the situation doesn't arise, then great! Under what circumstances would it be "pointless" to have? I legitimately am curious and don't understand this logic.

Its pointless because its not needed, id rather they focus on something useful for blm instead of something useless.

[Llugen]

You can't even say that. We've said over and over again why it's needed, for role balance. Because it's a recovery tool that 2/3 of the caster role has and BLM does not, making BLM a SIGNIFICANTLY weaker choice for content, particularly progression raiding (since here, there is a slot for one caster and one caster alone), but also PUGs and even dungeons where your healers die to the first mechanic of bosses.

And guess what, they can also focus on "something useful" for BLM, they already are. No one ever insinuated that a raise action alone would magically fix BLM's issues (get it? magically? badumtiss). Why does everyone seem to think it has to be one or the other?!


Just because you personally don't have a use for Raise on BLM or don't see why it's necessary doesn't mean that it doesn't/isn't for everyone who plays the game.

[EllieShadeflare]

You can't even say that. We've said over and over again why it's needed, for role balance. Because it's a recovery tool that 2/3 of the caster role has and BLM does not, making BLM a SIGNIFICANTLY weaker choice for content, particularly progression raiding, but also PUGs and even dungeons where your healers die to the first mechanic of bosses.

Raises won't save dumb and that's still not the reason why Black Mage is weaker.

And guess what, they can also focus on "something useful" for BLM, they already are. No one ever insinuated that a raise action alone would magically fix BLM's issues (get it? magically? badumtiss). Why does everyone seem to think it has to be one or the other?!

Because you act like the lack of Raise is one of the most major break it or make it situations for Black Mage here. You created that attitude, and others are refuting it.

Just because you personally don't have a use for Raise on BLM or don't see why it's necessary doesn't mean that it doesn't/isn't for everyone who plays the game.

And you're not getting the bigger picture.

People don't WANT THIS.

People have stated that they don't NEED THIS.

People have pointed out the class fantasy, which can be best described by this image:



People have pointed out there are ways around balancing Black Mage without a raise.

People have pointed out that there is no need for a raise.

People have pointed out that raising is unnecessary, even for prog and learning because the goal is to not die and to beat the boss, not to let yourselves die repeatedly while trying. Even while learning, you're still supposed to learn how to pass mechanics. This is the major barrier that hampered so many groups after it was discovered that you could skip Soar, so many people tried to skip Soar that they almost blatantly refuse to learn or plan for it.

People have pointed out that there's other portions of the caster identity that has nothing to do with raising. Primarily, that we have a cast bar while other DPSes don't.

Hell, the vast majority of people as far as I can tell disagree with you on this matter.

[Kabooa]

Hell, the vast majority of people as far as I can tell disagree with you on this matter.

The vast majority of less than 1% of the game subscription, half of which it's hard to tell exactly how good they are with Black Mage.