Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Miste]

haven't thought that I would ever read a statement or opinion like this - after fflogs data and statistics are the one and only core of every argument in this community... saying don't rely on fflogs data because those numbers are the product of reason "xy" does not only count for the caster statistic but for everything else people think they could underline with fflogs numbers.

Well I was only saying so for the BLM player statistic; you simply cannot claim how many people play a certain job based on fflogs alone.

FFlogs doesn't show the whole picture, but it is a foundation for certain kinds of information due to the complexity of the data it breaks down. It is a good indication of the more hardcore community since they highly likely make use of fflogs and parsers since it is a staple of being hardcore.

It is also a foundation of information for the midcore raiding community since most raid groups at least one person is likely parsing. It isn't 100% accurate on every count, but it isn't 100% useless either. Casual groups less accurate information since casual groups may or may not upload anything.

In PUG PF groups I notice most of the time someone uploads logs since they appear under my character afterwards. So yeah like I said not 100% accurate, but not 100% useless where all the information it can give should be disregarded.

[Neela]

#fairenough

I admit fflogs is a nice indicator for the ff-com but just that: an indicator of what works and what might need adjustments but in generell I'm still thinking the majority of this community isn't using fflogs or even any kind of forum at all tho. And true there are absolutely differences in hardcore and midcore raiding. although if people don't agree on certain opinions the first argument/point is "you are not in raiding right?" - midcore actually faces the same probs like hardcore, the big-ball-difference is they don't take everything so serious f.e. taking it on a personal level in nearly every discussion. Also I don't think its the midcore com who lockout cls (aside of the ones who think they could be carried through with meta comps)... that's most likely an elite/hardcore/veteran thingy they do for speedruns/farming - thats the reason I always say its a problem caused by the playerbase and not by SE.

The backdraw being a midcore raider is, they aren't taken seriously in discussions as well most of the time - if you haven't at least one good to high end parse on fflogs. : /

[Maero]

Why is this thread still going? Black mages should never Raise, period. That is for both lore and gameplay reasons. What they really need is more DPS, and that's going to be addressed in 4.2.

It remains to be seen yet if the blm "changes" will be of any value...

They may only boost our damage a bit and in turn because smn still has utility+dmg we will still be no further ahead.
Fingers crossed for the best and not only for blm (though it needs the most love out of casters) but for Red Mage as well and some tweaks if needed for smn

[Llugen]

I'm just going to point out again, just because yoship said in a live letter almost half a year ago (note: before 4.0 savage progression) that BLM "won't be getting a Raise" does not mean that they can't or won't change their minds.



The very fact that this thread exists means that there is a problem of perception within the community. Let me explain.

It appears that the players who are adamant against BLM having a Raise aren't thinking about the caster role, but BLM as an independent class. This is fine and dandy for normal content, but it is not fine and dandy for progression/static groups where there is one allocated caster role slot (if even). As far as I can tell, this must be where the discrepancy lies. Everyone citing lore and the other multitude of reasons why BLM should not have an on-GCD Raise don't seem to be thinking of the larger picture, which is the OP of this thread: the caster role in raiding.


As a caster main (note: not really even a BLM main, but a caster role main), I will play whichever class makes the most sense for whatever it is that I'm doing. Without access to raise on BLM while the other two casters do have access to it, it makes little sense to bring BLM for progression when you are guaranteed to wipe and go through deaths (not to mention BLM struggles the worst for learning mechanics and benefits the most from planning ahead, which is impossible by the literal definition of progression). So, whatever we can do to balance out this dilemma and have it make sense to take BLM, I'll take it. As I said before, they could flat increase BLM damage by a whopping 30% and it still would take less sense to take BLM, because the logic becomes "Ok so BLM is really strong now but it has no access to tools for progression and is a slow learning curve for fights, so let's just use SMN since it's almost as strong, has great access to utility/tools (raise included), and is a movement/mechanics god. If it turns out that we need even more recovery, then RDM it is. Maybe we'll bring BLM for after progression is over."


This is why we (or at least I) am fighting so hard in this thread for people to understand this concept. I don't want to be forced (or be bullied into or feel guilted into) playing SMN/RDM again (or feel guilty while playing BLM for not playing the other(s)). If this doesn't affect you for whatever reason (maybe you're the best BLM in the game and everyone wants you in their group, maybe you don't care about raiding at all, or don't care about the expanded caster role/party synergy, maybe all you want to do is stand in limsa with your shisui armor on), then please consider that maybe there is someone else that it is affecting and maybe listen to them before snapping about lore. Again, lore can be re-created; this is FF. Raise doesn't need to look like white magic; it could be necromancy, it could be void magic, they could design anything they want. It seems like when most of the people in this thread hear Raise, all they think is exactly what exists in the game currently: a long cast time on-GCD spell that costs tons of MP and can be swiftcast/dualcast, and it doesn't have to be that way. And it's a damn good thing too, because you're right; that would be really stupid to put on BLM, so I also hope they don't do that. However, the problem is still there, and there is an undeniably a problem. We can definitely disagree on the correct solution(s) (including doing nothing), but there is certainly a problem.

[Kurando]

The bigger picture is adding Rez is not a solution as other problems will still persist for BLM. Damage and mobility are a far higher priority at this stage, and extra utility would be a bonus (no not rez). If you join PF and get bullied or feel guilty to change jobs, well so what, make your own party if you want to play as something specific, that's why they are there. Yoshi-P is adamant about the rez issue, it won't change. Otherwise they would amend Physick output for SMN if they really didn't care about lore and wanted to consider "raiding" as the priority.

Anyway I'm not going to add any more because the whole thread is just going around in circles. .

[Llugen]

Just because BLM could use raise does not mean that it does not have other issues to be addressed. No one ever said that Raise alone would fix BLM, not sure why everyone seems to get that impression from this thread. There is a hundred page megathread about issues with BLM damage/mobility, and at least one other thread on the topic of BLM needing more damage, not to mention other assorted suggestion threads (my Freeze one, for example, and the one about Meltdown). They've already officially stated in the last live letter that they are addressing BLM damage. Brace yourself, damage is coming, but addressing damage alone does not solve the progression issue.

Also, Physick need not heal like Vercure because ONLY RDM has Vercure as a skill on DPS. It would be a dilemma if it was expected of the caster role to be able to spot heal, but it's only "expected" of RDM (and it's really not even expected of them, it just can come in handy). Raise on the other hand, both SMN and RDM have it but BLM doesn't, while using Raise is a very welcome thing for DPS to do when necessary. This is as simple as I can put it. It is never expected of any DPS job to physically heal, but it can be expected of a job to raise, namely, the caster role.


We have heard no official statement from yoship regarding just how "adamant" he is about it since July, and the landscape of the game has changed since then (savage/ultimate progression). We will see what is in store.

[Kurando]

My response wasn't an open invitation to discuss it, merely just closing statement. Little point in participating further with such hard headedness.

[Neela]

yesterday there was an interesting ingame discussion while waiting for the event fates to reappear... actually one rdm said if he would be one of the devs he would take res (& physic) from smn in change for a demi phoenix which could have a unstackable reraise ability, low dmg and short reg effect. at first I thought gosh thats to powerful and won't help this raise-discussion at all but after he explained further it started to make sense somehow...

- RDM would remain the only DD with emergency-instant res (white & red magic support lore)
- SMN lose their Sch skills res & physic and get a 2nd Demi Summon with the next major update

Why Phoenix wouldn't be that overpowered one might guess at first is, a Demi Summon is locked behind 2 aether phases which took quite a lil of time, Phoenix wouldn't have a burst dmg phase instead it would cast reraise (which is not stackable) and a grp reg for the 15 secs the summon remains on battlefield. The support seems high but consider that you loose one full phase of Bahamut-Burst/Ahk Morn. Further more it can't be used spontaneously and need a good timing to be effective (meaning useful on more than one player at a time). And to end this it wouldn't attack healers lb 3, cause lp just remain like a normal res with weakness.

what do u think? might it still be to powerful? idk... but it took me thinking about it after all, leaving RDM the only progression support caster in the known terms... with res & heal : O

oh an before Llugen exhorts me again this wouldn't be a smn thread - you are right its not but its also not a pure blm thread as the title say "lose or get raise" so yeah I'm talking about loosing one ; 3

[Lina_Slayer]

I really don't think a res is needed for the class to be viable in progression, Ultimate's first clear had MCH-BRD-DRG-NIN so no combat res from their dps and while they said in an interview how important RDM was for their progression, even if we get a res there is no way it would be as powerful as RDM's, meaning that if a group feel dps res is important they would still progress with RDM.

However if we do enough damage (either by pure super high personal damage or some kind of offensive utility) to surpass SMN people would try to fit the class in the team because in the end you need damage to kill the boss, just like happened on Ultimate's first clear where they used RDM to make progression faster but to actually kill they went with the physical meta because it just brings way more damage to the table and quite frankly if we do the damage we should be doing and your static bullies you into playing something else you would be better with another static.

[Neela]

if we do the damage we should be doing and your static bullies you into playing something else you would be better with another static.

#sotrue

for me the whole discussion around smn, mch (prepatch) and rdm, blm now is about being useful in pfs/random parties - cause like you say in a static which is based on fc/ls member or even rl friends everybody should play whatever he wants - even dbl cls or whatever. Sure even than talking about syngery and party buffs should be a must have but if you are forced to go with something what won't fit you - you are cleary in a wrong spot at all. : o