Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Remedi]

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

Since this is a MMO and not a single player I already said plenty why balance wise I feel that it is affecting the game in the wrong ways

[Shouko]

Since this is a MMO and not a single player I already said plenty why balance wise I feel that it is affecting the game in the wrong ways

Oh snap, I thought this was a single player game, thanks for setting me straight...

Instead of complaining about skills that either one job gets or another lacks, try resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available.

[Llugen]

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

Cannot cast higher level/the strongest spells, you say? *laughs in Verflare/Verholy*


I definitely don't agree with Remedi's position on the Raise skill but I can see why they have it. Basically they think "recovery" should be the sole job of the healers not the DPS nor the tanks. I think at this point in the game with three caster role options, two of which have raises, there is no reason for it not to be kept by the caster role. However, this obviously includes BLM, hence this thread. My assertion is further supported by the implementation of the entire role pool system in 4.0, which by extension all but means that the utility that roles have should be used across the board and is sanctioned firmly by Square Enix. Saying that "casters shouldn't be able to raise" is akin to saying that casters shouldn't have Apocatastasis and ranged shouldn't have Palisade. These skills were deliberately given and should be utilized.

"This raise doesn't inflict res sickness."

Bam. Give it a 3 minute cooldown.

No, it should definitely still have Weakness/Brink associated with it, because those debuffs penalize the person that died (this is why they fixed weakness in 4.0 to be main stat reduction only, so the person that died is penalized worse damage output-wise for the death and the healers are not penalized as harshly (due to lowered VIT/HP in the previous version)). I stand by my suggestion that it should do something to increase the BLM's damage by using the Raise, as that would give incentive for them to use it and make some sense from a class design/lore point of view.

[Remedi]

Oh snap, I thought this was a single player game, thanks for setting me straight...

Instead of complaining about skills that either one job gets or another lacks, try resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available.

We are discussing about an inbalance between the caster role, some say that it should be giving to all and as for myself I say otherwise, frankly I would say it's not complaining we are simply explaining our point of wiew and honestly you have simply shown the wikipedia description for the RDM so I took what you said for the content it was referred to

[Cynfael]

Oh snap, I thought this was a single player game, thanks for setting me straight...

Instead of complaining about skills that either one job gets or another lacks, try resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available.

This is arguing for the sake of arguing. You are being pushed back on because your comments aren't relevant in the context of discussing how the game actually does and/or should work. I'm not sure what that bit about "resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available" is even supposed to mean.

[Dualgunner]

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot.

What armor can FFXIV's RDM equip that FFXIV's BLM cannot? There's plenty of armor it can wear that WHM can't but then again this game separates the INT and MND stat so why would a WHM even want to wear endgame caster gear?

They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series.

Not very versatile in FFXIV. It's sole job is DPS. It's sole goal is killing enemies. All the tools in its kit minus one are geared to that purpose: verraise (vercure can be used offensively by proccing a dualcast mid phase transition). In Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood, Red Mage has no versatility: it cannot function as a healer, and it cannot function as a tank. The "White Magic" and "Black Magic" it uses are repainted versions of the same spell. It does not wear gear other casters cannot (minus the AF gear, but if you bring that up the other casters have more options due to more AF gear). Having a raise and otherwise being completely tooled to DPS does not versatility make.

So, take away it's versatility and it's unique gear choices, and what's left?

It's a pure-blooded DPS job.

However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

And when it's a pure-blooded DPS job, it has two options: hit hard and make others hit harder, or hit hard as all living hell. Even that second option, before it's pointed out, is a stretch given how synergy in this game works, which is what is seeing BLM into its current predicament. RDM has a unique extra niche with verraise, but at the moment, compared to say Bard, it does neither of those things. If FFXIV didn't follow the Holy Trinity, perhaps RDM could have been a support / buffer job, but it does and RDM is DPS. Balancing a DPS to have low damage output because it's "lore friendly" is a really good way to see a good job dumpstered.

Is that a difficult to grasp concept?

[Llugen]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue, here. The job is a DPS role, certainly, but no other DPS role can carry an entire boss fight with Vercure. The job is DPS but with high emphasis on support, much like BRD and to a lesser degree NIN. This is "versatility" in my eyes, and SE would most likely agree. It's true that the job could use more support to try to upkeep with BRD, but that's a topic for another thread; this thread is about Raise and BLM/the caster role.


With high emphasis on support, it makes sense for it to Rez Dispense(tm). It does not make sense for BLM to be able to output frequent raises, hence the recast ability idea. Attach some kind of power buff to it and bam, you got yourself a "pure damage" raise ability. Outside of Remedi's assertion that only healers should have the ability to recover (which I don't see happening, as aforementioned), I literally don't see how anyone can argue with this proposal. It is a win-win all around.


The only hesitation I could see coming from SE's end is that if BLM is given the ability to "profit" from another player's death, it may be used for grief play or harassment in the duty finder (ex: healer allows someone to die deliberately so the BLM can use the raise and get the damage boost)

[Dualgunner]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue, here.

Look at the post I'm responding to, and it becomes somewhat clear that I'm arguing you cannot balance Red Mage like this is a single player RPG, where you can adjust a single job for "versatility."

The job is a DPS role, certainly, but no other DPS role can carry an entire boss fight with Vercure.

I'll let you know how happy the next healer I run into is when I spend the whole boss fight doing that. Also, it doesn't particularly matter in current raid tier content, I'm not carrying o3s, o4s, or ultimate with vercure.

The job is DPS but with high emphasis on support, much like BRD and to a lesser degree NIN. This is "versatility" in my eyes, and SE would most likely agree. It's true that the job could use more support to try to upkeep with BRD, but that's a topic for another thread; this thread is about Raise and BLM/the caster role.

You're right. The particular comment I was responding to though was "Red Mage should be balanced like this is a singleplayer game." Perhaps you're right and SE sees being able to heal low level content as a DPS and rez dispenser as versatility; perhaps they intentionally balanced RDM to be like all the singleplayer RPGs by having it tuned for the start of the tier (start of the game), and over time you want to throw it in the bin for a stronger more specialized job. If they did, that's dumb both for people who don't want to play it and people who do.

With high emphasis on support, it makes sense for it to Rez Dispense(tm). It does not make sense for BLM to be able to output frequent raises, hence the recast ability idea. Attach some kind of power buff to it and bam, you got yourself a "pure damage" raise ability. Outside of Remedi's assertion that only healers should have the ability to recover (which I don't see happening, as aforementioned), I literally don't see how anyone can argue with this proposal. It is a win-win all around.

Dude, you really are becoming a broken record. At no point have I ever made a comment about your recast raise idea. Instead you just hijack me responding to somebody claiming RDM should just shut up because singleplayer balance to harp it some more. I still have no opinion about it, just please, find less convoluted ways to keep winding back to it.

What I find most annoying is it's hard to have any conversation at all without you harping back to this in some way. I could say something as benign as "It'd be cool if RDM had verfreeze/verflood for an AoE finisher" and I'd probably make money betting you'd tie that back to BLM needing a recast raise somehow.

I understand your dislike for the job, especially since you were forced to play it for prog. I don't want RDM to be a progboy either, and I also hate the position Black Mage is in. It annoys me to no end to see 35 summoners cleared ultimate, 2 red mages, and 0 black mages. I don't care if vercure is nerfed to 100pot and verraise is dropped off the dualcast, and your BLM raise idea are all implemented at once.

The only hesitation I could see coming from SE's end is that if BLM is given the ability to "profit" from another player's death, it may be used for grief play or harassment in the duty finder (ex: healer allows someone to die deliberately so the BLM can use the raise and get the damage boost)

I can see that as a possibility, yes.

[Llugen]

...I explain exactly that in the following sentences. Should probably read the whole post before replying bit by bit.

If your healer is dead or locked out Vercure can absolutely carry the group to victory, and in case you haven't done progression on RDM, a well-timed Vercure or two can and will absolutely save the party from wiping (read: "carry" to victory), so your argument is very short-sighted on this front. Healer just died and incoming tank buster/need to heal up Walking Dead, etc? You bet your ass Vercure can save the party. Even during downtime, Vercure can help healers top everyone off during GCO or during The Decisive Battle, there are LOADS of uses for Vercure outside of just "insulting the healers' intelligence" when you should be doing damage.

I'm not interested in having a "conversation" with anyone that doesn't acknowledge the suggestion (note all the people saying "hurdur don't give blm raise plz muh uptime loss of dmg want more 'splosions"), and this entire thread is about why BLM should either have raise or no caster role members should have raise, so I won't apologize for repeating myself on the topic until I get a legitimate critique of the idea. These people (devs included) don't seem to realize that raise does not have to function the way that it currently does on all jobs, as a GCD that requires a high amount of MP and a long cast time. Let's change that. Oh, and I should note that I'm not trying to call you out specifically for not acknowledging recast idea, only those who don't seem to be interested in acknowledging it.




Lastly, whether or not I dislike the job (RDM) is only minimally relevant; I only want to not be "forced" to play the job, and for others not to be forced NOT to play the job. A fix on this/these fronts can and will solve this dilemma. Let the RDMs play RDM and let the BLMs play BLM; don't force each to play the other.


EDIT: In reply to the below comment (since I've already run out of forum posts for the day, apparently, and the forum doesn't save your written response when you receive this error), I will apologize for coming off as brash. I am very passionate about the issues with the caster role, and as a player who has played it at the high end basically since launch I have done a LOT of thinking about the role and its shortcomings. Also, I'm notorious for submitting my responses and then editing them after I realize I could have said something better or more succinctly or that something came off in a bad way, so please do re-read this post as I edited it several times before seeing your response.

[Dualgunner]

If your healer is dead or locked out Vercure can absolutely carry the group to victory, and in case you haven't done progression on RDM, a well-timed Vercure or two can and will absolutely save the party from wiping (read: "carry" to victory), so your argument is very short-sighted on this front. Healer just died and incoming tank buster/need to heal up Walking Dead, etc? You bet your ass Vercure can save the party.

Okay, you have a very different definition of carry than I do. Fair enough. No Red Mage is going to stand in for the white mage in savage progression: you're not going to outright replace the WHM and SCH with two Red Mages.

I've not once had that moment in progression where my vercure made any noticeable difference in a wipe, and for that matter nor have I had one where raising people has made a particular shift in progression. That said, my raid group likes learning the mechanics one at a time, so usually the lead's called for wipe by the time I finished trying to pick people up off the floor.

The only time vercure's actually saved somebody's life, in my experience, has been my own when I went in undergeared with no food to v4s the first time, and needed to cure myself in between the space of two flares going off to live. The strat was then optimized for healer uptime and even that was no longer necessary.

All that was just to explain where I'm coming from in regards to this discussion.

I'm not interested in having a "conversation" with anyone that doesn't acknowledge the suggestion (note all the people saying "hurdur don't give blm raise plz loss of dmg want more 'splosions")

Okay?
I acknowledge your suggestion. I have no comment on it, however.

and this entire thread is about why BLM should either have raise or no caster role members should have raise, so I won't apologize for repeating myself on the topic until I get a legitimate critique of the idea.

Sure, you have a point that this is the point of the thread. How about every other thread you've brought it up ad nauseum in? Does it ever strike you I don't disagree with you, I just don't have any critique to offer which is why I never comment on it?

Lastly, whether or not I dislike the job is only minimally relevant; I only want to have to not be "forced" to play the job, and for others not to be forced NOT to play the job. A fix on this/these fronts can and will solve this dilemma. Let the RDMs play RDM and let the BLMs play BLM, don't force each to play the other.

Let me quote you here:

...I explain exactly that in the following sentences. Should probably read the whole post before replying bit by bit.

There's no point at which I disagree with you in this sentiment, and your suggestion sounds okay. I don't care how they do it, I just want that to be the state of the casters.

EDIT: In reply to the below comment (since I've already run out of forum posts for the day, apparently, and the forum doesn't save your written response when you receive this error), I will apologize for coming off as brash.

Sometimes I really do dislike these forums in particular just for the daily post limit. It's an outdated system and these are the only forums I've come across which have something like this (*and the 1000 word count, which is so easily worked around it might as well be deleted) rule in place. I also apologize if I come off as brash.

I am very passionate about the issues with the caster role, and as a player who has played it at the high end basically since launch I have done a LOT of thinking about the role and its shortcomings.

I will admit, I'm less defensive of RDM because of the class' history and more for it filling the role of spellblade. In games, I've always preferred that archetype, and in lieu of it I prefer melee. I would actually either be a SAM or DRG main still if the group I finally found didn't want a caster more. That group then went to run double BRD through o1s-o3s prog and now I'm rambling.

Pure spellcasters have never been interesting to me, and as such I don't hold a lot of interest in BLM and SMN. That's why sometimes I'll go so far as to forget I'm playing RDM and instead fill in the gaps to pretend to be a Rune Knight or some other spellblade.

Also, I'm notorious for submitting my responses and then editing them after I realize I could have said something better or more succinctly or that something came off in a bad way, so please do re-read this post as I edited it several times before seeing your response.

Okay, I'll re-read it.

I should also note I apologize for the amount of derail this has caused on the thread. You are right and it is about BLM raising, end of discussion; I shouldn't have snipped at you regarding bringing your idea up to reign my off topic conversation back to topic.

Even during downtime, Vercure can help healers top everyone off during GCO or during The Decisive Battle, there are LOADS of uses for Vercure outside of just "insulting the healers' intelligence" when you should be doing damage.

Perhaps here is just where my selfishness and being a controller player shines. A single 350 potency cure can be life or death for one person: I then have to know who needs it most and be able to target them at a moment's notice. During GCO (which I am admittedly still figuring out the finer points of, despite my clear) I'm more focused on my own debuffs, surviving to first or third death (group pending), and then apoccing the tank with Allagan Field just before we're all knocked back.

I do, however, concede the point that vercure can be quite useful. Like I admitted earlier, I'm much more selfish about vercure than maybe I should be, only using it during things like Decisive to proc a dualcast on myself so I have dualcast and swiftcast in case he spawns on me with thunder or uses blizzard.

These people (devs included) don't seem to realize that raise does not have to function the way that it currently does on all jobs, as a GCD that requires a high amount of MP and a long cast time. Let's change that.

To be honest, and nothing against Yoshi P, but the whole dev team seems to like not changing things. That isn't to say I disagree that the idea of a raise needs to be uniform across all casters: in fact it's the opposite. I wish they'd branch out more into more unique ideas.

Oh, and I should note that I'm not trying to call you out specifically for not acknowledging recast idea, only those who don't seem to be interested in acknowledging it.

I've seen enough of what you're talking about in this thread alone. Hell, I may have spouted it a time or two and just not remembered, so I'd even understand if you were referring directly to me.