Interview with xenosys-vex

[Mycow8me]

You're completely missing her point. Tank dps should be balanced across all tanks. The trade shouldn't be utility for dps. It's every tanks job to protect the group. So having a job that doesn't offer group mitigation is stupid. If they balanced dps for dps, utility for utility, sustain for sustain, it wouldn't matter what tank you brought. The devs are balancing oranges with apples.

That's not what I got from reading her views at all, what I saw is what I read which literally states they are there to make classes different and balancing utility is "utterly futile" which implies not to even bother with it and only worry about dps.

In balancing the way you describe we are homogenizing the role anyway.

Edit: I'm getting tired of reading situations that only imply mitigation is for lowering damage received. You can effectively save members of your team with it that are not topped off on HP for raid wides. I cannot count how many times I have saved someone with a simple reprisal. At least that skill is on the role list where raid mitigation makes the most sense, you bring it if you want it or in some cases if you feel like you "need" it.

[Aana]

That's not what I got from reading her views at all, what I saw is what I read which literally states they are there to make classes different and balancing utility is "utterly futile" which implies not to even bother with it and only worry about dps.

In balancing the way you describe we are homogenizing the role anyway.

Edit: I'm getting tired of reading situations that only imply mitigation is for lowering damage received. You can effectively save members of your team with it that are not topped off on HP for raid wides. I cannot count how many times I have saved someone with a simple reprisal. At least that skill is on the role list where raid mitigation makes the most sense, you bring it if you want it or in some cases if you feel like you "need" it.

I am simply refuting the position that Xeno (this is a xeno interview thread afterall) and lots of other people often take to balance: ie-

"Balance tanks like this"
Utility
1 TankA
2 TankB
3 Tank C

DPS
1 Tank C
2 Tank B
3 Tank A

BARANCE!!"

Im just saying that's not balance. The game is designed to be cleared even with tank B/C(worst utility combo) and therefore #1 utility tank (A) will not be needed and will do less DPS. Tank A will ALWAYS be the black sheep because DPS is all that actually matters. Even if they swap the game so you really need that defensive utility, then all you do is kick out high DPS no utility tank. There is never any balance that way.

All tanks must be near equal in DPS 1st and foremost. There is no such thing as balancing apples and oranges (DPS and raid mitigation). It works for DPS because 'dps utility' is just raid DPS exchanged for personal DPS. Apples to apples.

[Reynhart]

All tanks must be near equal in DPS 1st and foremost. There is no such thing as balancing apples and oranges (DPS and raid mitigation). It works for DPS because 'dps utility' is just raid DPS exchanged for personal DPS. Apples to apples.

They don't need to be equal in personal DPS. And you mention a solution for that, that their utility is translated as what DPS it makes the raid gain.
The easiest utility is having unique damage buffs (Like Slashing Debuff in 3.x), but it can also apply by lowering healing requirements, thus indirectly increasing healer's DPS.
Both of them just need to be on par with what personal DPS the tank lacks.

Just an example : If Sole Survivor would put a vulnerability debuff on the target, it would make DRK more competitive than it is now without touching its personal DPS.

[Mycow8me]

I think balancing utility / sustain / dps is very achievable. The problem is the weight DPS has vs the other two. The DPS gap needs to be much smaller while for example utility can be wider. We already see that in DRK vs paladin (one single target utility vs paladins 4). The only problem in that scheme is that DRK is lower in all 3 categories vs the other 2 tanks yet people still take it so we know the current gap of DPS is not a issue, the gap needs to be reversed though with drk being on the higher end of the gap due to its other 2 categories being lower. Of course we could aim for a different category to excel in but that would require more of a rework to dark knight.

Here's my current lineup but feel free to disagree (based off being out of tank stance due to current meta):
DPS: War/Pld/Drk
Sustain: Pld/War/Drk
Utility: Pld/War/Drk


This situation does not get sticky until you add a 4th tank into the mix. This is where you might want a 4th category due to displacement of rankings from the fourth tank. In actual reality if we split utility up into single target utility and party utility you have 4 categories and can do a ranking hierarchy again for balance easily with 4 tanks for something to excel in.

Overall I think balance is achievable with DPS in the mix but its weight vs the other 3 due to current community "no mistakes, higher dps" ideology, phase pushing, and enrage mechanics is much higher than the other 3.

[Aana]

They don't need to be equal in personal DPS. And you mention a solution for that, that their utility is translated as what DPS it makes the raid gain.
The easiest utility is having unique damage buffs (Like Slashing Debuff in 3.x), but it can also apply by lowering healing requirements, thus indirectly increasing healer's DPS.
Both of them just need to be on par with what personal DPS the tank lacks.

Just an example : If Sole Survivor would put a vulnerability debuff on the target, it would make DRK more competitive than it is now without touching its personal DPS.

The problem is that mitigation does not directly translate to healer damage. It 'could' or 'might' but that is highly situational and assumes a LOT of things. Healers have to actively be trying to DPS (that fundamental point isn't even always true, particularly in pugs/DF where 99% of the game lives). The healers have to be good enough to recognize when 1 GCD is going to overcure and not be necessary. Mitigation is often heavily washed out by overhealing. Rates of 30%+ overheals are commonplace. So mitigation would just raise that number in many cases and never translate into actual healer DPS, or would do so at 70% efficiency (or whatever the overheal ratio is) and a number of other poblems, etc etc.

DPS raid 'utility' that buffs raid damage is much more direct because 6/8 people are always smacking a mob. Sure the pros will min max to line up every buff with TA etc, but even in the avg group just making everyone do more damage is guaranteed to translate to DPS. Using the middleman of healers 'potential' higher DPS as a factor to balance tank DPS is pretty weak.

Put another way: Imagine every tank does 3k damage. BARANCE. OK, Drk has crap defensive utility compared to pld. How much DPS do we give drk to make up for cover? 50dps? 20dps? Maybe the equivalent of 2 GCDs of healer? How much DPS is veil worth? 100 dps? 20dps? Whats 'fair'? Especially if you go the route of 'possible' healer DPS gains that may or may not even be realized.

Its really easy to to rank mitigation 1>2>3 DPS 3>2>1 but when you talk about actual values it quickly becomes clear its apples/oranges.

The simple way would be treat them like DPS. Give them raid damage buffs but that takes away from the 'fantasy' of playing tanks. But at least if DPS is balanced there is never the pld of 3.0 situation ever again. There will be preferences, a best, as there always will be unless they are clones. But at least if you 'like' to play (insert job) you wont be shunned for it.

[Mycow8me]

Apples to oranges is irrelevant and I'm tired of reading it. If it affects the overall versatility of a class then it has to be balanced and you won't find a balance till you try. The current tank balance is off, at least in DRKs case. Could easier balance be achieved if every class had the same skills? Obviously so... then we may as well all be playing pld with different skills.

Redmage can raise and upkeep a tank, how do you balance that into a DPS category without lowering their dps in the first place. How do you balance support skills vs dps? Is that bananas vs apples or something? They are different but they still require balancing, that's all there is to it. You can't have every class do 3k and one class bring an arguably useless utility that gets used for personal utility anyway, one class bring a useful utility, and another class have 4 utility skills.

[Aana]

Apples to oranges is irrelevant and I'm tired of reading it. If it affects the overall versatility of a class then it has to be balanced and you won't find a balance till you try. The current tank balance is off, at least in DRKs case. Could easier balance be achieved if every class had the same skills? Obviously so... then we may as well all be playing pld with different skills.

Redmage can raise and upkeep a tank, how do you balance that into a DPS category without lowering their dps in the first place. How do you balance support skills vs dps? Is that bananas vs apples or something? They are different but they still require balancing, that's all there is to it. You can't have every class do 3k and one class bring an arguably useless utility that gets used for personal utility anyway, one class bring a useful utility, and another class have 4 utility skills.

And look at where blm and rdm are. Or sam and nin. They are all unbalanced according to the community. WHy didn't people use the superior mitigation of Pld/War/Mnk/(Nin-Drg) compared to Drk/War/Nin/Drg for all of heavesward?

You say its possible and we should try. SE has been trying and failing since 2.0. Other games have been failing for years. The content alone will determine whats important to have and whats not. The players will, without fail, optimize their play and compositions to fit that mold. The way 14 is designed its all about damage with little concern for anything else. Unless SE starts redesigning their content then raid DPS is the single largest factor in shaping player perceptions about jobs and their viability. So work on the big rock issues and don't fill your jar with sand. Mitigation has a value, but its is both smaller than DPS and more ephemeral. If jobs do similar damage they will be 98% of the way to balance and thus all playable, functional, viable. Drk is behind on damage. Fixing that is both easy and the most effective path to balance. Its also a PVE game. Balance will never be the top most concern of devs. The pendulum will swing around every few patches, but if DPS is comparable then it will be small swings. We aren't going to get starcraft level balance because its a PVE game. But we can just get close enough for govt work and the straightest, foolproof way to do that in the games overall design is DPS.

[Crater]

WHy didn't people use the superior mitigation of Pld/War/Mnk/(Nin-Drg) compared to Drk/War/Nin/Drg for all of heavesward?

Because DRK/WAR offered a better mitigation package than PLD/WAR/MNK.

[Mycow8me]

Anna You can acknowledge a dps disparity issue in balancing all you want but I don't really feel any desire to fix said balancing from you. I coulda sworn I got this same feeling from you before in another dark knight thread but it was evident because people found out you only play warrior. I ain't going to go down that path though. I just wonder why I don't sense any desire to fix the problem from you.

Giving all tanks party damage utility would be a hodge podge fix at best if you ask me but I can only make that claim with no proof behind it. At that point people would take the tank with the best party dps utility so they can synergize it with the rest of the DPS anyway. All your left with is sustain and tank dps for balancing.

[Aana]

Anna You can acknowledge a dps disparity issue in balancing all you want but I don't really feel any desire to fix said balancing from you. I coulda sworn I got this same feeling from you before in another dark knight thread but it was evident because people found out you only play warrior. I ain't going to go down that path though. I just wonder why I don't sense any desire to fix the problem from you.

Giving all tanks party damage utility would be a hodge podge fix at best if you ask me but I can only make that claim with no proof behind it. At that point people would take the tank with the best party dps utility so they can synergize it with the rest of the DPS anyway. All your left with is sustain and tank dps for balancing.

"Found out I play war"? Really? Is it a secret im masquerading as a Drk infiltrating the community only to destroy it from within? Sinister implications! No ones hiding. Your main class is listed as blacksmith! GTFO of this tank forum! Get real.

A 'hodge podge' fix that is absurdly simple to do, will make every job playable, viable, removes any bias in 'balancing apples and oranges' and ultimately good enough for govt work in a PVE game that will never be Esport level balance. I'm trying to see where that sounds bad? A war who is OK with effectively lowering wars damage to pld, bring up drks bad dps to pld. Yeah im really tryin to hold down tha Dark Man. Its better than what we have now and has no downsides. But by all means, talk about how I find war enjoyable mr blacksmith.