AST Sects: Should it go both ways?

[Riyshn]

N.Ast also falls short of sch in every way possible when they're competing for the same raid spot.

Except for... you know... actual mitigation and party utility.

[Sebazy]

Noct was always the black sheep of the two sects throughout HW, it's still comparatively weaker now even after all the little buffs and tweaks it's received. I think it was pretty competitive for 4.0 as WHM/AST was a very safe pair of hands to be in for progression, but 4.1's SCH changes have tipped the scales back away from Noct again IMHO.

The difference in my throughput when I'm switching between Noct AST or WHM for various Ult Coil pugs is night and day though =/

[dotsforlife]

I only bother with Diurnal in stuff like dungeons, dailies and roulettes. It allows you to DPS more with the regens up. Noct is better suited for end game content imo but it really comes down to what your cohealer is.

[CreinCrein]

Scholar offers more party utility and raid damage contribution than Nocturnal Astrologian. The dps discrepancy between the two classes is already anywhere from 500-800 at the 95th+ percentile, not factoring in chain stratagem, the opening fey wind, or how scholar is the only healer class that can elevate the dps of their co-healer without negatively impacting their own. A majority of the higher tiered parses on Astro are also obtained by leaning and pushing on Eos's ability to carry the brunt of the required HPS as well as scholar's OGCDs. 50% balance uptime (which is generous) for an entire party pushing 30k raid-wide dps, is only 750 + lul rng. In addition, regardless of how "big dick" Astro's shields are, they will never make up for the amount of free healing that Eos brings to a raid. Both first and second Ultimate Coil clears were with sch/whm, so obviously there's no impactful shortcomings in scholar's mitigation.

[Kabzy]

Both first and second Ultimate Coil clears were with sch/whm, so obviously there's no impactful shortcomings in scholar's mitigation.

I agree with most of what you've said, but this point is a little silly. Two clears can hardly conclude anything, especially given the world first had a DRK in it.

Then some Japanese group will magically solo something with a N.AST and people will be in awe of it again. None of the healers are bad, including N.AST. It just doesn't outclass SCH in every way since the 4.1 buffs. I also agree with Mimilu, and actually this was a suggestion of mine way back in 3.4 or 3.5. The idea that better balance could be achieved by making AST a direct competitor with WHM and introducing a new healer to compete with SCH. Unfortunately we got no new healer, but at least they sorted out the WHM being dead issue.

[Maku]

Scholar offers more party utility

????? How????

AST card system is literally more utility than both other healers put together. The Card system also IS part of our DPS. Raising the DPS or the entire team with balance, arrow, and spear is the reason out personal DPS skills are weaker. If we had the same power in our spells we would be obliterating the other two healers. You absolutely must take into account the card system when talking about AST DPS.

[Fernosaur]

????? How????

AST card system is literally more utility than both other healers put together. The Card system also IS part of our DPS. Raising the DPS or the entire team with balance, arrow, and spear is the reason out personal DPS skills are weaker. If we had the same power in our spells we would be obliterating the other two healers. You absolutely must take into account the card system when talking about AST DPS.

SCH's party utility isn't just DPS buffs, ie. Chain Stratagem and opener Fey Wind. The core of SCH's utility is the GCD and resource free healing output that Eos brings. NoctAST's cards cannot match the DPS windows SCH opens not only for themselves but for the other healer as well, given that NoctAST has absolutely no sustained HoT save for Collective, and has to sacrifice a great deal of personal DPS to do the same function, both for themselves and the WHM, a job which already suffers from GCD vs oGCD efficiency "problems."

SCH not only has shields that are now very competitive (and even unparalleled, in the case of a buffed Deployment), but also brings a very significant amount of HoTs that cost absolutely no GCD or MP in the form of Embrace, Whispering Dawn and Fey Union.

To make things a bit simpler, SCH is way, way more efficient at doing their base job, which is healing, and in turn helps the other healer be way more efficient as well, regardless of what job it is. This is the reason that A12S clears that tried to go double AST for the massive Balance uptime were still slower than the clears bringing a SCH.

I personally think the utility tools both bring are pretty comparable, but in the end I feel like SCH definitely wins out due to a bunch of factors already discussed in the thread.

[Mimilu]

Personally, I think the devs need to choose if AST is going to focus on HoTs or mitigation, design the job around that, removing the sects, and add a new healer in the future to take up the dropped sects place.
As it stands, the balance between N.AST and SCH changes far more radically then between D.AST and WHM, with one receiving a buff and making the other inferior.
I think the sects also create a balancing issue within AST themselves because both are pretty much treated as two separate jobs in hardcore content, valuing different secondary stats and using their respective effects at different times (before or after a big hit).

[CreinCrein]

I hate using outlying information to make a point as well, but the gist of it was to prove that at adequate skill levels scholar can overcome their shortcomings in raw mitigation. In my opinion they have more than enough % mitigation to make up for the paltry loss in shield potency, if not exceeding it in output. It sets precedence for content of similar intensity in the future I guess is what I was getting at, we'll see as more clears come up. Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast
would have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

[Sebazy]

Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

Nope, you're absolutely bang on with that assessment IMHO, I'm having to pug and cover other groups to get my coil fix and as such, more often than not I'm having to run N.AST as I didn't bother levelling SCH. Right from the get go there's plenty of occasions where an AST has a comparatively hard time getting galvs up in time for mechanics. SCH's options simply work better here.