Just because DRK cleared ultimate first doesn't mean it doesn't need buffs

[SyzzleSpark]

I'm dismissing them entirely.

Thats dismissing an entire subset of data. That you find it personally silly is not a valid argument against their consideration.

The numbers that suggest DRK is weak are twofold:

1. First, DPS statistics. There's 4 months of Omega Savage behind us bearing this out. DRK is at the bottom across percentiles, meaning regardless of player skill. 10th, 50th, 75th, max. Its the lowest. The fact that it is the lowest across lower percentiles as well means we're not just talking about the speed run "meta" here. So we can just dismiss that argument entirely. Nothing below 80th really qualifies as even trying for a speed run, and 80-90th is trying and failing, or just really good players "taking it easy", perhaps.

2. Secondly, usage. DRK usage statistics are telling because they indicate that the job is about 40% as popular as PLD and 60% as popular as WAR, which means that there isn't some magical perk to the job that is making people want to take it in spite of its low DPS. If its DPS was low, but it was still consistently used (especially in light of how "easy" people claim the job is) this would indicate that the job brings something of value to make up for its DPS. It doesn't, and that's what the usage statistics show, in addition to showing that regardless of how "easy" it is, it doesn't make more people want to bring it to groups.

Moreover you don't need to look at statistics to observe this. The other tanks have significant advantages. Higher burst, more reliable and powerful mitigation, and better raid mitigation (WAR) and better sustained DPS as well as better AoE and ST raid mitigation (PLD).

We are looking at Savage, and not UCOB, because this is what we actually have DATA on, thus we can deduce FACTS from that data. No DRK is going to argue for or against buffs right now based on UCOB because there is no data to actually analyze on the topic. Its Savage data that has been the source of information for most of the many DRK feedback threads you see on the forum right now. UCOB isn't even on topic yet.

Outside of Dark Mind (in fights specifically designed to bait it out), the other tanks capabilities are just superior, and there are even statistics to suggest that this is a weak argument (fights like O2S and Shinryu that are packed with Dark Mind bait, but where DRK still underperforms statistically compared to its peers.)



The WF DRK has gone on record saying that it wasn't that DRK brought anything to the group that was better or even equivalent (he was specifically asked if DM or TBN was the reason). He did it because he finds it fun. Its also just one clear, its statistically insignificant. It isn't indicative of data, or facts. Its indicative of one player being very, very skilled and talented, and they would likely have gotten WF regardless of what job he played, although ultimately we can't know one way or another, which just drives the point home that much further that DRK's future should not be determined by this one, single clear. It just so happens that DRK was that guy's personal favorite, and it was his ability and skill that did the rest.


Basically, people are arguing that DRK doesn't need any buffs because of the personal preferences of a single human being. Do I really need to state why this is stupid?

[Lyth]

I think people tend to understate the value of dps differences in casual gameplay. In reality, this affects skilled tanks as well, because most halfway-competent tanks end up hopping into trap groups to either help out friends or to test their skill. Besides, if you can't perform well outside of a perfectly controlled speedrun environment, you would probably struggle as a prog tank.

If you're playing in a casual group, there is going to be a lot more variation in individual player skill than there is in a speedrun group, because the entry requirements are lax (or non-existent). You could very well have one or two players on whom the entire raid hinges on to clear. If you're a good tank, it's not uncommon to find yourself providing equal if not more dps than a weaker damage dealer. I'd argue that the differences become even more pronounced under these circumstances. An extra 300 dps could very well make the difference between your group clearing or not. You have a lot more carry potential on WAR, simply because the job is so self-sufficient and straightforward to optimise.

Optimising DRK is very much a raidwide endeavour. It's been that way since HW. We are very reliant on our teammates. When your teammates aren't comfortable enough with the fight or their own job mechanics to do this, the dps gap widens even further.

[Risvertasashi]

Another group cleared unending coil with DRK.

[SyzzleSpark]

Another group cleared unending coil with DRK.

It would stand to reason that if one DRK clears UCOB, another DRK might do the same. Not sure what this proves. Thanks for the drive-by attempt to discredit the thread though.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

The obvious question is, "Why would two world first groups use the 'weakest' tank in the 'hardest' content?"

Is there an obvious answer? I don't think so.

[Chrono_Rising]

The obvious question is, "Why would two world first groups use the 'weakest' tank in the 'hardest' content?"

Is there an obvious answer? I don't think so.

Well the WF answered. They said they ran because they liked the way the class played.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The obvious question is, "Why would two world first groups use the 'weakest' tank in the 'hardest' content?"

Is there an obvious answer? I don't think so.

For the same reason Angered initially ran Samurai then Monk when Dragoon/Ninja is clearly more optimal. They found it fun. Yes, Monk helped with Mantra, but at the same time, unless fights have an incredibly high DPS check, comp won't have a significant impact unless you're speed killing.

[Risvertasashi]

It would stand to reason that if one DRK clears UCOB, another DRK might do the same. Not sure what this proves. Thanks for the drive-by attempt to discredit the thread though.

One server first clear might be a fluke.

Several server first clears suggests there might be more to it than people are claiming.

[Valdegarde]

One server first clear might be a fluke.

Several server first clears suggests there might be more to it than people are claiming.

That some people love Dark Knight as their main despite its faults? I wonder what these magical heroes would say if asked whether they think Dark Knight needs some work done. I think I can guess the answer, and it's different than what the community's gut reaction is imposing onto them.

[Risvertasashi]

That some people love Dark Knight as their main despite its faults? I wonder what these magical heroes would say if asked whether they think Dark Knight needs some work done. I think I can guess the answer, and it's different than what the community's gut reaction is imposing onto them.

I'm not saying DRK doesn't need a little love from the devs.

But I am implying that some of the more... extreme opinions might not be giving credit where credit is due. (And this applies to people that might refuse to take a DRK, not just DRK players).