Just because DRK cleared ultimate first doesn't mean it doesn't need buffs

[Crater]

One thing to keep in mind about Unending Coil is that, despite the extreme difficulty of the fight as a whole, that difficulty comes almost entirely from the rapid-fire mechanics that constantly ramp up in complexity, and not from raw numbers checks. The DPS checks are really not especially tight, and the auto-attacks and tankbusters aren't really much more punishing than you'd expect from a standard raid encounter tuned for i340.

In addition to that, the fight is basically designed to minimize differences in class performance. The enrage timer resets on each new phase, so on a clear attempt, the only DPS check that really and truly matters is in the last ~3 minutes. If you're 5% behind in damage over the course of a normal 15-minute fight, you're 45 seconds behind by the end, but over 3 minutes, you only fall 9 seconds behind.

The benefits of an optimal composition are pretty weak in this fight relative to any other.

[whiskeybravo]

But all of that has just been thrown out the window. Warriors threw a tantrum, and SE said that they don't have to take their medicine anymore. They got a bowl of ice cream when everybody else just got a cookie, and they cried about it until they got a cookie too.

That's a pretty unhealthy attitude. I was one of the lone warriors trying to defend SE's initial changes to War (mainly beast gauge fiasco), because I believe in playing a game the way it's made. I chalk it up to being a old-school gamer, even a fairly recent example like Demons Souls: an original, hard af game that's never been updated or nerfed in anyway by the devs. Much respect.

But that being said, in the end I think the changes were good. It was a bad design to end up with 3, 7, 9, 11, etc quantities of gauge. I agree with the intention of the devs to bring tank (specifically war) dps back down to Hydaelyn, but it was a bad implementation in this particular case. As for the change to Shake It Off, honestly it seemed like an easy way out/knee-jerk reaction kind of change, like they didn't know what to do with it so just made it another party shield to stack on top of all the other party shields, which ended up making it borderline OP. But I have no disagreement that the original Shake It Off was a terribly useless high level ability that quite frankly no job should have been given.

DRK had clear advantages before the change to SiO, and SE screwed that up - not the players. They could've changed SiO to be anything else. Yes, the players complained about it and wanted a change, but SE ultimately made the call on how/what to change exactly - Not warrior mains.

So now they are in a position where they must do something with DRK. All the power and more to you DRK mains still sticking it out, still trying to find something to say or do to get SE to hear your cause. I'm sure they know, they can't be entirely oblivious. I think the housing debacle is overshadowing everything else right now, so maybe it's just bad timing to expect a response. Tank balance is important, but housing is important for far more players. So once the dust settles from that I'd expect SE to start working on how to fix DRK.

[Jukebox12]

In all reality pld should be doing less than dark and warrior and warrior damage is mostly see how many crit or crit direct fell cleave you can do. Dark and warrior needs a buff

[Reynhart]

I chalk it up to being a old-school gamer, even a fairly recent example like Demons Souls: an original, hard af game that's never been updated or nerfed in anyway by the devs. Much respect.

Why should they ? Even if you don't like the game, you find it too hard and enrage a lot on forums, you've already paid for it, they don't have to keep you motivated if you decide to give up on your own.
That's not the same with a subscription based MMO.

[Jukebox12]

Why should they ? Even if you don't like the game, you find it too hard and enrage a lot on forums, you've already paid for it, they don't have to keep you motivated if you decide to give up on your own.
That's not the same with a subscription based MMO.

Can I hug You?

[whiskeybravo]

Why should they ? Even if you don't like the game, you find it too hard and enrage a lot on forums, you've already paid for it, they don't have to keep you motivated if you decide to give up on your own.
That's not the same with a subscription based MMO.

Was I comparing Demons Souls to subscription based MMO? No. It was just an example (even if a bad one) of respecting a developers creation.

Even still, just because you pay a sub every month to play this game doesn't mean the devs have to pander to your wants/ideas. You don't like it then you don't play. If the devs want more money from more subs then they'd be wise to listen to what the players want, but it doesn't follow that they are required to. Much the same as Demons Souls could've been made for a wider audience for more sales, but it wasn't.

[Reynhart]

Was I comparing Demons Souls to subscription based MMO? No. It was just an example (even if a bad one) of respecting a developers creation.

This vision was destroyed the minute Steps Of Faith was butchered.

Even still, just because you pay a sub every month to play this game doesn't mean the devs have to pander to your wants/ideas. You don't like it then you don't play.

That's not how the dev team can communicate.

If the devs want more money from more subs then they'd be wise to listen to what the players want, but it doesn't follow that they are required to.

Or they find others way to earn money. Cashshop is one of them. Accumulated subscription days is another, clearing putting a twist on "you can play something else while you wait for new content"...that is to say "as long as you keep your subscription running". Doesn't it feel weird to you that, right after Stormblood, the moment where we get a whole lot of new content, a campaign was created that basically enforces you stay sub for 3 months straight ? I see it as "The honeymoon's gone, now we need something so that people don't leave en masse"

Much the same as Demons Souls could've been made for a wider audience for more sales, but it wasn't.

FFXIV has a lot of pression over its shoulder, bringing money for lots of other SE's projects. I doubt it would really achieve that if it was a "niche" MMO.

Call me cynical, but it's becoming harder and harder for me to see FFXIV with benevolent eyes.

[whiskeybravo]

Jfc.. All because I have an appreciation for old-school video games lol

Just forget I ever mentioned it. My apologies for inadvertently sidetracking the conversation with an example.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Yeah, and they're getting edited while I'm trying to reply and then I'm noticing the quote doesn't match the post and I'm wondering if I really need to say anything anyway. I think what I'd really like to suggest is that if DRK's numbers appear weak but it's getting through anyway then maybe we're looking at the wrong numbers. And no, I'm not seeing 1st as the same as a speed run. Speed runs are silly and irrelevant in my book. I'm not equating them, I'm dismissing them entirely.

While the reasoning you use, I feel isn't the best way to come to that conclusion, I am now at the same conclusion due to further examination of whats been said recently, on how the main checks are just doing the rapid fire mechanics, and the actual checks in numbers arent there. (heal/dps/tank buster checks)

So if the checks arent there (and i personally dont agree to removing number checks) then you're correct in that it doesnt matter if DRK is weaker, because the ONLY thing a WAR can bring over a DRK now, is solely DPS for speed runs.
(I also find 1st clears to be equally as irrelevant as speed runs, but i wouldnt dismiss it just because I find them pointless and uninteresting.)

In short, my concerns were how much easier a WAR would, or would not make the run for a group.

If the content isnt made to be difficult in a numbers way, then WAR doesnt technically make the hardest content noticeably easier. (Though I guess u could argue O4S is still easier with WAR)

[Lyth]

...

The community has changed as well. In 3.x, DRK was generally respected as a high skillcap tank. We were willing to have more punishing conditionals on our abilities because it was generally recognised that this was part of the job's difficulty. Performing well on it made people sit up and take notice. WAR was considered good because of its so-called "superior design". DRK was considered good because of the players.

With 4.x, there was a lot of anxiety surrounding job nerfs, especially for WAR. Instead of openly bragging about the job's power, it became more commonplace to talk about how difficult it was to play, in spite of the fact that the Berserk rotations and resource generation are significantly more streamlined than in HW. At the same time, a few well-known tanks have pushed the agenda that DRK is somehow "braindead easy" to play, despite not even bothering to clear the tier on the job. Move over DRK, WAR is now "harder" to play. Or that's at least what they'd like you to believe.

I suppose it doesn't really matter too much, but as a result, a lot of DRKs have turned around and said, "Well, if we don't have to live up to the expectations of playing a 'difficult' tank, then why do we have so many punishing conditionals on our abilities?" You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The devs do have a responsibility to address the balance issues, but the community is part of the problem. We've created this mindset that DRK is simultaneously easy to play, not fun to play, and less useful to play, despite being paradoxically more punishing to play. Which is why it's refreshing when one of the eight best players in the world comes out and unapologetically acknowledges that they love playing the job, after completing the hardest difficultly content in the game.

It's all the more reason for SE to take action. We care about DRK.