#BringBackHeavenswardReprisal

[whiskeybravo]

Nah, seems to be the opposite direction devs want to go. Reprisal is useful now because it's only for raid mitigation. Give DRK back reprisal w/ damage it will be used for DPS instead of for raid mitigation. Kinda defeats the purpose..

I agree there needs to be changes but I don't see this doing the job. I'd rather them just give DRK their own off-GCD filler dps move than try to re-purpose reprisal again.

[Crater]

Nah, seems to be the opposite direction devs want to go. Reprisal is useful now because it's only for raid mitigation. Give DRK back reprisal w/ damage it will be used for DPS instead of for raid mitigation. Kinda defeats the purpose..

I dunno, do you consider it a problem that DRK uses Plunge for DPS even though it's a gap-closer? Because this would be more or less the same thing.

If you don't specifically need the utility of Plunge's mobility, then you use it as often as possible to maximize DPS, but if the mobility is an important factor for a specific part of a specific fight, then you'll usually hold Plunge to use for its mobility, if you're gaining more than you'd be losing by holding it.

Reprisal would work the same way. On most fights, you would aim to use it as often as possible, either by slotting Anticipation to boost your Parry rate (imagine that, by the way: an actual reason to ever slot Anticipation!), or by strategically breaking a TBN to activate Reprisal. But if mitigating raid damage (or even a tankbuster) was a primary concern, then you could just hold off for a few seconds and leave it off-cooldown, even if it does proc, so that you have it available when you need it.

I think DRK has enough bad/useless skills that it would be a good thing to have an extra one that is always good for DPS, even in cases where it's only sometimes useful for utility/mitigation.

[whiskeybravo]

I dunno, do you consider it a problem that DRK uses Plunge for DPS even though it's a gap-closer? Because this would be more or less the same thing.

If you don't specifically need the utility of Plunge's mobility, then you use it as often as possible to maximize DPS, but if the mobility is an important factor for a specific part of a specific fight, then you'll usually hold Plunge to use for its mobility, if you're gaining more than you'd be losing by holding it.

Reprisal would work the same way. On most fights, you would aim to use it as often as possible, either by slotting Anticipation to boost your Parry rate (imagine that, by the way: an actual reason to ever slot Anticipation!), or by strategically breaking a TBN to activate Reprisal. But if mitigating raid damage (or even a tankbuster) was a primary concern, then you could just hold off for a few seconds and leave it off-cooldown, even if it does proc, so that you have it available when you need it.

I think DRK has enough bad/useless skills that it would be a good thing to have an extra one that is always good for DPS, even in cases where it's only sometimes useful for utility/mitigation.

I think it's a good thought process, I just don't see how it actually plays out. Set aside if you're MT for a second. If you are OT'ing and need to reprisal a large raid-wide, then you're sacrificing DPS by spending mp for TBN shield to break and proc reprisal. Is the extra 210 potency going to make up for lost dark arts attack? Nvm making sure you aren't going to cap on blood gauge when the shield breaks. I don't know. Plunge is a bit different since it has no cost associated, nor is any party raid utility being compromised by using it. Could be wrong but just my thought process here.

I agree they should make one of the role actions have more synergy with DRK. PLD has synergy with Rampart and War with Awareness. Anticipation would be a good place to start since they lost dark dance.

[Nivarea]

I think it's a good thought process, I just don't see how it actually plays out. Set aside if you're MT for a second. If you are OT'ing and need to reprisal a large raid-wide, then you're sacrificing DPS by spending mp for TBN shield to break and proc reprisal. Is the extra 210 potency going to make up for lost dark arts attack? Nvm making sure you aren't going to cap on blood gauge when the shield breaks. I don't know. Plunge is a bit different since it has no cost associated, nor is any party raid utility being compromised by using it. Could be wrong but just my thought process here.

I agree they should make one of the role actions have more synergy with DRK. PLD has synergy with Rampart and War with Awareness. Anticipation would be a good place to start since they lost dark dance.

You forgot that using TBN procs 50 blood, and that means a Delirium or a Bloodspiller. Right now, using TBN on CD while gritless to proc Bloodspillers is a slight DPS loss over time. With Reprisal, it's a whole new story, as we got a free 210 extra potecny every minute, making it a dps gain on those occasions. And we also have to take into account the possibility of a natural proc by parry, which happens sometimes. And 210 is greater that the 140 potency Dark Arts put on the table, so yes, it's a DPS gain.

It will not solve every problems DRK got, pheraps not totaly DPS wise, but it's still a good ability on the defensive side, with an offensive spin.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

What it basically comes down to is that every other TBN is a DPS gain, as Reprisal's cooldown is (was) 30s. There's still clearly a lot of folks that are confusing the stats of the current Reprisal with the old one. The old Reprisal lasted 20s and had a 30s recast, gated of course by your parry rate (this is why Dark Dance was so much more than what the current Anticipation would imply - DD was not only some small, free fluff mitigation, it was also a tool to proc Reprisal in much the same way as TBN would be under these changes). To me this just shows how many PLD and WAR mains are reaping the rewards of the new CR skills without ever having touched the job that footed the bill, but I digress.

Anyway - This is why you wouldn't just spam TBN on CD for DPS gains, but twice a minute, it is a gain.

As far as the actual DPS gain, 210 potency every 30s is about 7 potency per second and 16(-ish) potency per GCD, which is a very modest DPS boost, and nothing particularly balance-breaking. Shield Swipe equates to 300 potency every 30s, so even it is a greater overall DPS gain than this would be.

As far as the raid mitigation, it would have to be used intelligently to actually be mitigating damage when you need it to, as a fair portion of the time this would only be helping the DRK (or whomever is tanking). So even as utility, its something you have to plan the usage of in order to get mileage out of it. Its really not that powerful of a buff in any one department, the beauty of it is that it is just one, single buff, but it bolsters our effectiveness in literally every metric, and the work SE would have to do to implement it could probably be accomplished in a single shift at SE's office.

[Crater]

I think it's a good thought process, I just don't see how it actually plays out. Set aside if you're MT for a second. If you are OT'ing and need to reprisal a large raid-wide, then you're sacrificing DPS by spending mp for TBN shield to break and proc reprisal. Is the extra 210 potency going to make up for lost dark arts attack?

The "DPS loss" of using TBN on the main tank as an OT is pretty much negligible as-is; because you get 50 Blood in exchange for your 2400 MP, it's the same situation as ever, where there's a technical average loss over time of somewhere in the area of 3-4 potency, which can easily be turned into an outright gain of potency if it means getting an extra Bloodspiller inside of any sort of raid buff. The problem with the skill currently is that the defensive effect of an OT TBN is pretty questionable, and rarely justifies taking the risk if any loss, even one as small as 3-4 potency.

Under this system, both sides of those issues are addressed: First, the "DPS loss" is offset by literally 50-70x, because the 3-4 average potency you lose by converting 2400 MP to 50 Blood is immediately dwarved by Reprisal itself, for a whopping 210 potency gain. And second, the defensive effect of an OT TBN is no longer "You put a shield on the main tank for a couple thousand HP, which almost never makes a difference in terms of tanking or in terms of healing". It becomes that same shield, but is then followed by 20 seconds of taking 10% less damage, which will tend to add up so some substantial help for your co-tank/healers.


Edit:

Another scenario to consider, that I think is actually really important, is one like the sequence in Neo Exdeath where he casts Aero III, and follows it with Earthshakers. This spot is a perfect illustration of where DRK's current defensive kit fails it, because the Aero and the Earthshaker are placed 10 seconds apart. That means that not only can DRK not use TBN to mitigate both of those (pretty hefty) hits, because of TBN's 15s cooldown, but zero of DRK's native cooldowns will do the job. Shadow Wall has a 10s duration and therefore can only catch one of those hits, and even if the Earthshaker were magic, neither could Dark Mind, for the same reason. In practice, DRK tends to want to burn Rampart to cover both of those hits, and use Dark Mind on the Aero, and use TBN on the Earthshaker. Meanwhile, all of a Warrior's cooldowns will cover both hits, and a Paladin can cover both with Bulwark, or use Rampart and Sheltron both of them, or even let a healer take aggro, use Cover on the healer, Sheltron both, and save Rampart.

This is one specific example, but you actually see DRK getting screwed by it over and over and over again, where hard-hitting attacks come exactly 10s apart, and nothing DRK has can deal with the mitigation even remotely efficiently, forcing the use of 2-3 separate cooldowns.

If you could TBN the first hit of something, and then know that you'd have a 10% mitigation tool in Reprisal to cover anything else that happens in the following 20 seconds, DRK would be in a much better place to deal with this specific attack timing in an efficient way.

[whiskeybravo]

Under this system, both sides of those issues are addressed: First, the "DPS loss" is offset by literally 50-70x, because the 3-4 average potency you lose by converting 2400 MP to 50 Blood is immediately dwarved by Reprisal itself, for a whopping 210 potency gain.

It's becoming a bit more clear to me on what your suggestion is. But I'm still not entirely sure on the dps gains. I think the 50 blood gain is a wash because you get 50 blood gain now for TBN breaking, so what you're really losing out is the 2400 MP which could be dark arts+something, either Bloodspiller, Souleater, or Carve & Spit. Average potency increase from DA for these 3 (140+200+350) is 230 potency.

[Mycow8me]

So its a proc mitigation...? I could see this happening maybe for giving DRK a -10% vuln buff but as a party utility hoping you get a proc for when its needed would be kinda silly unless the boss uses alot of raid wides frequently throughout a fight. I never got the 3.x experience as stated already so I don't know but proc mitigation sounds kinda "nice to have" but may not be ready "when you need it".

My opinion on this doesn't hold nearly as much weight without the 3.x experience but from what I'm hearing about how it works now... I'm kinda turned off to it.

Edit: That animation and sound it makes is really badass though, I wish they'd replace carve and spit with it unless they are saving it for a skill like insurgency in the future or something IDK.

[WhyAmIHere]

So its a proc mitigation...? I could see this happening maybe for giving DRK a -10% vuln buff but as a party utility hoping you get a proc for when its needed would be kinda silly unless the boss uses alot of raid wides frequently throughout a fight. I never got the 3.x experience as stated already so I don't know but proc mitigation sounds kinda "nice to have" but may not be ready "when you need it".

My opinion on this doesn't hold nearly as much weight without the 3.x experience but from what I'm hearing about how it works now... I'm kinda turned off to it.

Edit: That animation and sound it makes is really badass though, I wish they'd replace carve and spit with it unless they are saving it for a skill like insurgency in the future or something IDK.

here ya go. https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/inde...sal&oldid=9057
This is what reprisal used to be. After a parry, 10% damage down for 20s, with a 60s recast. 210 Potency. DRK obtained it at lvl22, so it had uses in lower-level dungeons and content.
So, it's not even like it was that useful when a DRK was OT'ing, unless you happened to parry a raid-wide AoE, or on adds as best I can recall. Asking to have it returned, but have a broken TBN proc it would allow it to have uses while a DRK is OT'ing.

[Crater]

It was a proc that worked exactly the way that Shield Swipe works, except with Parries instead of Blocks, and twice the cooldown. The skill itself applied a 20s duration debuff that reduced the target's outgoing damage by 10%.

The reason it was removed was likely not because it was similar to Delirium/Halone/Storm's Path (the main issue with those skills was that Path stacked with the other two, but the other two were mutually exclusive), but because, in SE's words, they wanted all of the tanks to perform well in both a main-tank and an off-tank role. Since Reprisal was a significant source of DPS, only procced on a Parry, and you could only Parry while main-tanking, the old design wasn't compatible with the idea of DRK being able to off-tank.

Changing it to also proc on a TBN break is the solution that allows Reprisal to be reintroduced without compromising that design, as it would be available in either tanking 'role'.


Past that, I believe I've made the case for why it would be an appropriate skill to reintroduce to DRK, given the current state of balance, and how many of DRK's disparate issues it would address.