DRK: TBN to BS, When is it good?

[ProfGuard]

I've seen a post months ago about how The Blackest Night (TBN) to Bloodspiller(BS) usage is a DPS gain only when in Grit stance. That was way back.

Now that there were 20 potency buffs for Souleater and Bloodspiller each, does that upset the rule?
Potency per GCD of Souleater combo = 150+250(+70 accounting for mana gain) + 300 = 770, divided into 3 (# of GCD) = 256.666...
Comparing that to potency of TBN-BS = 400 - 140 (accounting for TBN mana) = 260

PPGCD (256.66) < TBN-BS (260)

Does this mean more TBN-BS usage is a gain even out of Grit??
I hate to believe Devs would want DRKs to spam TBN for DPS gains, making the game play repetitive and stressful. Am I doing the math wrong?

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

You're not accounting for the Souleater Blood return, which equates to 30-ish potency.

Its been, on average, a marginal loss since the Souleater buff.

Its never "good" its merely "not bad". Assuming it pops.

Your sentiment regarding spamming TBN is actually the opposite of how a lot of people feel, since now it feels kinda bad to use TBN period. Most DRKs avoid using TBN at all if they are not tanking, since the payoff is poor and the resource investment isn't well compensated for.

[ProfGuard]

I completely forgot about the Blood return, thank you very much

[PLitz]

Buffing Souleater and Bloodspiller by the same potency would tip the scale in Bloodspiller's favor (i.e. make TBN more of a DPS gain). They'd need to increase it at a 3:1 (Souleater:Bloodspiller) ratio if they want to maintain the current balance between the two. For example, they could buff Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, and Souleater each by 10 and Bloodspiller also by 10. Or they could buff Souleater by 30 and Bloodspiller by 10.

[Wyndam]

Ideally I'd like TBN to be DPS neutral since I'd like to have it available when I need it for defensive purposes. It would almost make more sense if it returned the MP spent rather than Blood to achieve that affect without needing to go through the math.

[Shinkyo]

TBN into BS is a DPS gain only in the below scenarios:
- if it allows for an extra BS in a dps buff window (e.g. trick attack)
- if the boss is going to be untargetable resulting in your combo to be interrupted
- the boss is about to die

Basically, it’s sometime a minor dps gain, sometime a minir dps loss. For consistency, it’s better to avoid it overall because there’s more risks than benefit.

[ULoki]

TBN into BS is a DPS gain only in the below scenarios:
- if it allows for an extra BS in a dps buff window (e.g. trick attack)
- if the boss is going to be untargetable resulting in your combo to be interrupted
- the boss is about to die

Basically, it’s sometime a minor dps gain, sometime a minir dps loss. For consistency, it’s better to avoid it overall because there’s more risks than benefit.

So use mp to Dark Arts Soul Eater?

[Jonnycbad]

Using it for DPS would make it sorta forced. It's meant to be a defensive cooldown.

On the other hand, if it were a DPS boost, it could be used "tactically" by creating situations where it's advantageous to maybe not dodge that next AoE in so as to get the proc, thus increasing DPS. Until I learned that it was a slight DPS penalty to use TBN, I would sometimes step into AoE circles in Dungeons (as long as they didn't give a Vuln). It would only do like 5-10k damage but I figured the proc would result in more damage

[Shinkyo]

So use mp to Dark Arts Soul Eater?

Yes. The whole argument is that overtime the mp cost is better used for DA as it doesn not delay your mp/blood generation.

[Lyth]

No Grit
Replacing Hard Slash:
50 blood = 1.2(400 potency) – 1.2(150 potency)
50 blood = 300 potency

Replacing Siphon Strike:
50 blood = 1.2(400 potency) – 1.2(250 potency) - 0.5 DA
50 blood = 180 potency – 1.2(0.5)(140)
50 blood = 96 potency

Replacing Souleater:
50 blood = 1.2(400 potency) – 1.2(300 potency) – 10 blood
60 blood = 120 potency
50 blood = 100 potency

Every three Bloodspiller actions, we have:
150 blood = 300 potency + 96 potency + 100 potency
150 blood = 496 potency
50 blood = 165 potency

1 DA = 1.2(140 potency) = 168 potency

Grit
Replacing Hard Slash:
50 blood = 475 potency – 150 potency
50 blood = 325 potency

Replacing Siphon Strike:
50 blood = 475 potency – 250 potency – 1 DA
50 blood = 225 potency – 140
50 blood = 85 potency

Replacing Souleater:
50 blood = 475 – 300 – 10 blood
60 blood = 175 potency
50 blood = 145.8 potency

Every three combos, we have:
150 blood = 325 potency + 85 potency + 145.8 potency
150 blood = 555.8 potency
50 blood = 185 potency

1 DA = 140 potency

AoE
Abyssal Drain: 0.55 DA = 120 potency/mob
TBN + Quietus: 1 DA = 160 potency/mob + 0.2 DA/mob

Interpretation
From an MP efficiency standpoint, TBN is a 3 potency loss, on average, at baseline out of Grit. This is determined by how strong Bloodspiller is relative to your combo actions, which is why any given use of TBN can be a situational gain or loss.

If MP is not a limiting factor and you're trying to fit in as much potency into a window as possible (i.e. Pot/TA/Embolden/Hypercharge etc.), then TBN can be a situational gain, as the extra Bloodspiller not only provides more potency but also represents an additional DA opportunity (as you can't DA HS).

In Grit, TBN is a dps gain on average. However, if you're in Grit, then you're probably also tanking (and Grit is intrinsically a dps loss). So TBN is unlikely to break on a random auto. Chances are, you'll actually need to mitigate a cleave or something stronger with it.

People worry that TBN will be used as a replacement for DA if it is a net damage gain. The factors which limit your ability to do this are the strength of the shield and TBN's duration. The stronger the shield, and the shorter the duration of TBN, the less likely you can throw it on a random auto and get it to break.

In order for TBN to be a dps gain out of Grit, your teammate shield should also be 20%. Then you will be encouraged to specifically mitigate big damage hits rather than throwing it out haphazardly as a mini-infuriate.

In AoE, TBN is a dps gain over AD. Quietus refunds part of the cost of TBN (with 5 mobs present, it refunds the entire cost, and at higher values, it's a net MP gain).