Monk suggestions

[Mahrze]

Moreover, for a mechanic to ever feel like a reward to maximize, rather than a punishment to lose, it needs to have something like exponential difficulty or preparation required to be maximized such that maximization is rare, and it needs to be balanced around a state that is less than maximization.

Imagine, for instance, if GL was not a fixed duration, but instead extended by relative potency dealt (potency of all weaponskills, DoT ticks, and abilities, as per their multipliers). While GL could still be advanced by Coeurl moves, perhaps even technically to an infinite level, each ascended level burns through that duration more quickly, whereupon it descends to the previous level. You would be fighting for every precious second of GL4, but it would be always there, always possible, and would thereby again allow further modular control. Have both a single-burner (new) and all-burner (Tornado Kick) ability by which to quickly manipulate GL downwards. Now, after due tuning, the whole spectrum is in your hands: it's now a real mechanic, and its heights actually feel like rewards, not just the initial requirement for dealing halfway acceptable damage.

Or to simplify, like a manual transmission on a car for you to rev up or down. Though keeping TK as an all-burner with its current potency still feels niche and i can even add bland considering the loss, but the rev up/down is indeed an idea I can see on MNK.

No one, especially not me, is telling GL sustaining is fine and fair.

The point is just : things cannot be compaired if they aren't comparable. Armor crush can only be compared to whatever extend the duration of GL : coeurl form strikes. Telling that nin doesn't have to refresh it 3 times as Armor crush is a decision that can be delayed and coeurl form attacks are an automatic cycle. Give +15s to huton on aeolian edge and shadow fang and no one will ever touch AC anymore, because it's a decision, and Coeurl form attacks aren't.

The punishing aspect is none to be compared, because the whole design of GL was turned, as the heavy positionnal, to the relative difficulty to properly play MNK and be top DPS. However, this design is flawed now, and monk is just one amongst other DPS and nothing is a justification to it's exigency.

I mean we can be pedantic about it to how each gimmick works and how in that sense, none are comparable. But the point from it is not the specifics, but what you clarify in the end. MNK is still the job with the biggest circus to achieve nominal results on par with its peers.

[ULoki]

I really feel like reducing the cooldown for Perfect Balance will Fix many of the Monk's issues.

[wereotter]

Or to simplify, like a manual transmission on a car for you to rev up or down. Though keeping TK as an all-burner with its current potency still feels niche, but the rev up/down is indeed an idea I can see on MNK.

I like the idea, but I feel like getting too much Greased Lightning would make the job less engaging and more difficult. It would be hard to weave in a Steel Peak, for example, if GL IV made skill speed so high as to make weaving skills a DPS loss.

I've heard of the concept of implementing GL IV as a reserve stack as opposed to an active one. This would mean you could, in theory, have GL IV, use Tornado Kick which puts you down to GL I, and immediately execute a Demolish or Snap Punch, and be back to GL II, effectively making the skill less of a punishment to lose.

Also an idea that occurred to me while tying this out that would be a huge quality of life improvement for maintaining monk stacks, is have each individual stack time out on its own. So say a boss jumps and you have 10 sec of GL left, if you would not be able to refresh it otherwise, rather than lose all three stacks, you go to two stacks with now 16 seconds to gain back your third stack or go back to one stack. This would put the buff more in line with Huton giving you effectively up to 47 seconds to execute a Corel Stance move before losing all your stacks while still putting you back if you can't maintain it fully. This would be even more improved if the fourth reserve stack was a thing. So if the jump was more than 16 seconds and you wouldn't be able to utilize Riddle of Earth, you can still potentially have two or three stacks when combat resumes.

[Shurrikhan]

Or to simplify, like a manual transmission on a car for you to rev up or down. Though keeping TK as an all-burner with its current potency still feels niche, but the rev up/down is indeed an idea I can see on MNK.

TK would likely need some sort of carry-over. For instance, if downtime meditation were removable (as most people do not seem to enjoy spamming their key as soon as downtime begins, hoping like hell they'd only recently been able to cap and spend Chakra as not to waste the downtime potential, and since the devs seem unwilling to empower manual Meditation to any point of during-uptime situational viability for modular control), it could source Chakra in a way that cannot be overcapped, allowing then for uses of abilities that may accelerate its way back up to a typical GL level or provide enough relative potency to help maintain a burst phase.

Alternatively, TK could, in addition to its damage, cause the next x strikes to consume GL as its penalty rather than removing the stacks outright, such that it (1) lingers briefly, aiding the return ramp-up, and (2) has no additional penalty during downtime.

Or any combination of whatever to make it feel smooth, viable, and intuitive for the purpose it's meant to fill.

I like the idea, but I feel like getting too much Greased Lightning would make the job less engaging and more difficult. It would be hard to weave in a Steel Peak, for example, if GL IV made skill speed so high as to make weaving skills a DPS loss.

Ideally, Monk would need the same QoL improvement that DRKs, NINs, MCHs, BRDs, and DRGs have also always needed: for their animation times to scale with their current GCDs.

[wereotter]

Ideally, Monk would need the same QoL improvement that DRKs, NINs, MCHs, BRDs, and DRGs have also always needed: for their animation times to scale with their current GCDs.

It's not so much the animation times I'm worried about as much as human reaction times. If your GCD gets too short as a result of having a 4th stack of greased lightning, trying to execute skills within your combo might lead to clipping your GCD and potentially be a DPS loss overall. Animations will already clip into each other if you execute one skill before the animation for the one before it completes. I see this happen a lot with Elixir Field already. and with several ninja skills as well.

[Mahrze]

I've heard of the concept of implementing GL IV as a reserve stack as opposed to an active one. This would mean you could, in theory, have GL IV, use Tornado Kick which puts you down to GL I, and immediately execute a Demolish or Snap Punch, and be back to GL II, effectively making the skill less of a punishment to lose.

Also an idea that occurred to me while tying this out that would be a huge quality of life improvement for maintaining monk stacks, is have each individual stack time out on its own. So say a boss jumps and you have 10 sec of GL left, if you would not be able to refresh it otherwise, rather than lose all three stacks, you go to two stacks with now 16 seconds to gain back your third stack or go back to one stack. This would put the buff more in line with Huton giving you effectively up to 47 seconds to execute a Corel Stance move before losing all your stacks while still putting you back if you can't maintain it fully. This would be even more improved if the fourth reserve stack was a thing. So if the jump was more than 16 seconds and you wouldn't be able to utilize Riddle of Earth, you can still potentially have two or three stacks when combat resumes.

That concept for GL IV feels so lazy if that's their plan I'm flipping tables. MNK has too many "micro-gimmicks" that adding more would stray away from simplification, specially when we have to consider that for the development team, the whole fists thing is a thing.

TK would likely need some sort of carry-over. For instance, if downtime meditation were removable (as most people do not seem to enjoy spamming their key as soon as downtime begins, hoping like hell they'd only recently been able to cap and spend Chakra as not to waste the downtime potential, and since the devs seem unwilling to empower manual Meditation to any point of during-uptime situational viability for modular control), it could source Chakra in a way that cannot be overcapped, allowing then for uses of abilities that may accelerate its way back up to a typical GL level or provide enough relative potency to help maintain a burst phase.

Alternatively, TK could, in addition to its damage, cause the next x strikes to consume GL as its penalty rather than removing the stacks outright, such that it (1) lingers briefly, aiding the return ramp-up, and (2) has no additional penalty during downtime.

Or any combination of whatever to make it feel smooth, viable, and intuitive for the purpose it's meant to fill.

I agree that TK would need a rework because like you mention its a carry over. But obviously MNK would be a bit jarring with all this speed focus when it has a skill suite that is flat or counter-intuitive within itself. But I also feel putting TK on GL is a bit hollow when we also have another resource (chakra) with its own limited usefulness so shifting TK to Chakra usage with it's preq being you being on GL4 status would be pretty nice.

I like the idea, but I feel like getting too much Greased Lightning would make the job less engaging and more difficult. It would be hard to weave in a Steel Peak, for example, if GL IV made skill speed so high as to make weaving skills a DPS loss.

Ideally, Monk would need the same QoL improvement that DRKs, NINs, MCHs, BRDs, and DRGs have also always needed: for their animation times to scale with their current GCDs.

And like a souffle, it all falls flat xD

[Shurrikhan]

It's not so much the animation times I'm worried about as much as human reaction times. If your GCD gets too short as a result of having a 4th stack of greased lightning, trying to execute skills within your combo might lead to clipping your GCD and potentially be a DPS loss overall. Animations will already clip into each other if you execute one skill before the animation for the one before it completes. I see this happen a lot with Elixir Field already. and with several ninja skills as well.

The minimum XIV GCD is 1.75 seconds, if datamining is to be believed. That still leaves you at a potentially much lower APM than most other tab-target GCD-based MMOs. I can cast 5 skills in the span of a single GCD on WoW (where theirs is a maximum 1.5 seconds) on my Fire Mage, for instance, and I've yet to hear a single complaint of that being too dependent on reaction times from that spec or others that require similarly high burst periods of APM.

Personally I'm not worried about the aesthetic of clipping, even though it may bug me. I'm worried about the actual embedded truly Global Cooldown (one which affects both Spells and Weaponskills AND Abilities) in each animation, or "animation lock", which thus far have been relatively arbitrary in some cases (Plunge, for instance, ending its animation a half second before its animation lock finishes), but uniform in most (roughly .8 seconds).

[MauvaisOeil]

I mean we can be pedantic about it to how each gimmick works and how in that sense, none are comparable. But the point from it is not the specifics, but what you clarify in the end. MNK is still the job with the biggest circus to achieve nominal results on par with its peers.

They are, but false assesment are detrimental to anyone's argument. You want to be percieved as trustfull ? Don't say X job can do Y while it's wrong or inaccurate.

[Shurrikhan]

That concept for GL IV feels so lazy if that's their plan I'm flipping tables. MNK has too many "micro-gimmicks" that adding more would stray away from simplification, specially when we have to consider that for the development team, the whole fists thing is a thing.

It's not as if Fists, even as a stance, couldn't be integral and interesting.
Fists of Fire -- All damage applies and ramps a short DoT component at a % of the direct damage, and increases the damage of all said DoTs while active --> Increased damage --> Increased relative potency, slightly bankable --> Extended GL pushes.
Fists of Wind -- Increased haste --> More skills usable within the given GL window before being forced downward --> Deeper GL pushes.
Fists of Earth -- Increases the rate at which negative effects fade from you and decreases the rate at which positive effects (including GL) fade from you --> The benefits of RoE already, but far more smoothly.

Heck, rather than just "GL" you could have each apply their own benefit upon Coeurl use. Or they could adjust the GL effect retroactively. Or a combination thereof. Or they could generate unique resource. Anything, really, that isn't just a superfluous 10% movement speed, 10% DR, and what would better -- if the only one really used -- as a passive trait or across-the-board potency buff.

I agree that TK would need a rework because like you mention its a carry over. But obviously MNK would be a bit jarring with all this speed focus when it has a skill suite that is flat or counter-intuitive within itself. But I also feel putting TK on GL is a bit hollow when we also have another resource (chakra) with its own limited usefulness so shifting TK to Chakra usage with it's preq being you being on GL4 status would be pretty nice.

My point was more that at present it isn't a carry-over, but would need to include carry-over in some form if we didn't want to make the difference too shocking, even while fully rewarding its effective decision-making. Essentially, its useful even now in particular niche situations (GL will fall off, no matter what), but I want to see it usable in a broader span of situations, as per one's own plans, rather than just based on what's coming in the fight. That means use during uptime, as well, not just at its tail. And for that to work to a player's satisfaction, it would need to feel okay to use even when there are blows to be struck after it.

I want to feel the differences based on my decisions, to allow for manipulation of timing. If TK were based solely on Chakra, it would just be a matter of "do I want extra damage, or do I want that other thing", and damage would then win out in 99% of situations unless of course that other thing is a rDPS gain, which then follows the same concept. It becomes a checklist, rather than something that you have to think about in context.

And like a souffle, it all falls flat xD

Ehh, no more so than the idea of even being allowed to play NIN below a 2s Huton-GCD. That would be a huge boon for everyone, and a necessity in making Skill Speed a viable stat (alongside changing TP to 50 per GCD (base or current -- wherein NIN/MNK costs would need to be rescaled) instead of 60 per flat 3 seconds, but that's a story for another time).

[Shurrikhan]

They are, but false assesment are detrimental to anyone's argument. You want to be percieved as trustfull ? Don't say X job can do Y while it's wrong or inaccurate.

AC was never compared to Coeurl in the sense that Coeurl should give 30 seconds of duration, or that GL should somehow be bankable to over a minute's stored time.

Rather, NIN can make or break a ~12% of their DPS with a single decision that costs at most 160 potency. A Monk [1] has no weaponskill control by which to preserve 48% of their damage potential, [2] is dependent on external factors for the full extent of its buff duration (a boss jumping off just before Coeurl strikes gives an effective duration of 12 seconds, not 16), [3] must sacrifice a CD and/or [4] consume up to 3 GCDs of uptime, at a further cost of up to 250 potency in Chakra generation, and [5] can even then only retain that portion if struck by damage within 15 seconds of the boss's return.

Lose 50 potency relative to AE or up to 160 before oGCD burst relative to SF, or... no actual control anyways, and 4 times the punishment.