Monk suggestions

[Deceptus]

IMHO Tornado kick should fill the 2nd button in MNK aoe combo. MNKs are supposed to be combo masters.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Riddle of Earth should replenish your greased lightning timer and freeze it until you next hit the enemy. Forget the whole take damage rubbish.

[Silver-Strider]

PB: Reduce CD to 80 seconds
Form Shift: Added effect to refresh GL when switching from Coruel to Opo Opo
Deep Meditation: Always grants Chakra on Crit
Tornado Kick: Changed to AoE Chakra move. Reduced CDto 5 seconds with a reduced potency to be 240 with the 80%/2nd target - 50%/5+ targets clause. (Not sure it would be able to realistically keep the 330 Potency cause then it would be used instead of TFC)
Arm of the Destroyer: Remove Silence, Up potency to 110.
One Ilm Punch: remove stun, change to Line AoE with 100 potency
Steel Peak: Gains a silence effect.
Riddle of Earth: Altered to provide a 8% damage mitigation to the group.
Tackle Mastery: Taken into a dark alley and shot, repeatedly. Replace with Riddle of Wind Proper and just have it grant a 2nd Tackle within 15 seconds of use. This is more to help with MNK's mobility, which is questionable at best since we need to use Shoulder Tackle on CD to keep our DPS up, so the 2nd tackle would have no potency.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

snip

I like the idea of form shift refreshing GL3. It would also make room to give RoE raid wide mitigation. I put a similar concept in the Monk ignored thread. I feel like they are scared to reduce PBs CD due to the huge spike it can have in AoE potential. But if they can make SMN ridiculously OP for AoE and still be Top personal DPS in the game (or slightly under the same) why can't Monk also excel in AoE situations given the right tools.

PB could be used to at least min max during a fight then, instead of currently being sat on a ridiculous CD that sees 2-3 uses in each fight. It's too long to fit into a rotation, due to phase changes like in Neo, where at the 5 min mark you have GCO, leaving it 1 min still on CD if you were to use it in a rotation, forcing stack loss and a slow rebuild. The only other use is at the very end of a fight to spam either true strike and pray for a crit or spam bootshine before finishing off with TK. It's just very clunky to use right now due to it's insane CD length. When you compare it to equal 3 min CDs like holmgang and benediction. It just pales in use usefulness. 80s is more than enough imo. I like the idea of Monk giving a wide variety of healing, defensive and damage up raid contributions.

I kinda wish Steel Peak was more than just a CD to hit, DRG and Nin got it pretty good where it actively interacts with their resource. I'd like Steel peak to also generate our resource of chakra. Every 2 minutes or something. I still wouldn't like the RNG on crits however. while yeah it's still 100% in your version we're still at the whim or crit rng. Maybe every successful boothine crit would work easier and positional skill would play a role still. I'd also get rid of the RNG on brotherhood, and just be a straight 5% damage buff every minute for 10s. A poor man's trick attack but it would be more effective in AoE situations than TA can be, as it's a buff and not a debuff. I'd increase TFCs potency too. While we won't be firing off as many before due to good RNG, we'd at least be more inline with our HW version of firing off one powerful hit due to good play. Honestly i'd rename brotherhood to RoF just to keep inline of having the Riddles because I think the concepts of having elemental riddles is cool, but they are implemented so bad as of right now. Remove the previous RoF and just increase our potencies back to HW values. I'd nerf the TK potency as you said to keep it at AoE use and not for single target.

The way this monk would play would be in 30, 60 and 120s segments like almost every other job does. at 30s you get elixir field. at 60s you get at least one forbidden chakra due to bootshine crits. this pairs up with new RoF(old brotherhood, minus chakra rng), Internal release, howling fist etc and synergizes with other Raid CDs. at 120s we regain Steel Peak, granting us 5 chakra stacks. and can essentially burst with our opener. This creates a more consistent flow in raids due to synergy and also allows monk to play without slowdown due to not getting unexpected forbidden chakras. Would this make monk better than Nin or DRG? nope. but it would certainly bring them a lot closer, and the 60s raid utility they'd have would be much more beneficial than the wonky 90s utility we bring when almost every job works in 60s bursts.

The 90s Raid utility we have as of right now. only aligns with TA at the 1st use, 3 minute mark and then 6 minute mark etc. every other job aligns with TA at the 1st use, 2nd minute, 4th minute etc. I'm using TA as the baseline for alignment because that's the shortest Raid CD we currently have which every other jobs revolves around. Monk utility should be no different imo. I think these changes would make Monk more enjoyable at least and remove RNG elements while keeping positional skill still relevant due to bootshine crits only granting chakra. We could also use PB to grant us more chakras through Bootshine spam.

I just feel like Monk is missing so much right now in terms of making the job enjoyable

[Mahrze]

...I'd much rather see Fists of Wind, Earth, and Fire, for instance, be made more fluid, integral, and distinctly significant rather than outright pruned, but that would likely require turning them into something else entirely.

And that is what they require precisely: Turning into something else entirely that potentiates interability play. I would even argue, on top of the effects they would bring, to have their effects linger for x amount of time as you keep shifting them...

"Bard"-ifying the stances would actually be pretty nice. Cycle through the stances to access different effects/combos. While we can argue that 10% reduction is overkill, as it stands with earth riddle MNK has a potential ~20% reduction for 30s every min. And MNK in most FF games have high HP & STR so the "sturdiness" can be justified in canon, specially since we're 90% of the time hugging the boss and playing chicken with AoEs.

Then we get to GL vs the rest. Every other job has a convenient way to keep their job buff up with minimal effort. And monk by design has do do a dog and pony show to get to the top and another one to keep the buff. Not to mention Tornado Kick and Riddle of Earth are a "pick your poison" contrast.

When you think about it, MNK is a micro management nightmare in design, 3 stance forms , 3 fist forms (which would technically be the same) 3 riddles (secrets in jp iirc). 5 chakra points, 3 levels of Greased Lightning which are in an all or nothing setup and if we add positional requirements in the mix for our damage output and the nigh-useless blunt damage de-buff and we can start seeing the migraines.

• But Forms can easily get axed by using fists to change the combos akin to how WAR has a duality with their beast skills. making the combos change based on the Fist in use.
• Each Fist can change the combos to match the fist element. While the Fist stance will have a timer and a gauge/point system to execute fist related abilities
• With Riddles can easily be the finishers of each fist stance. These finishers can have utility linked to them. Earth: Increased DH/CH / Wind: Regen/Refresh / Fire: Strong DoT
• The Chakras should be raised to 7 points and have both offensive and defensive capabilities. that are not all or nothing skills. The chakra points themselves should have a higher rate of acquisition.
• And Greased Lightning becomes our passive buff with the addition of Movement from Fist of Wind and the Defense of Fist of Earth (GL1: 10/5/2/2; GL2:20/10/5/5; GL3 30/15/10/10). With PB being our burst "GL4" status for damage output and rather than a Skill Speed penalty, we get an increased TP cost as penalty.

[Eugene_Kirigaya]

Honestly, I was initially in the "Riddle of Earth Sucks!" camp, but having used it for a few months, I think it's the best designed and most satisfying feature SE added to Monk this expansion. Sure it doesn't prevent you losing your stacks in every situation, but it's not *supposed* to. It allows for there to be some skill in finding/optimising where it can be used in contrast with Tornado Kick, and encourages knowledge of a fight and player skill. Like, using it between the pushback of Decicive Battle in v4s, and the Holy hit so you can get a few extra seconds of GL to refresh it with a Coeurl move when he comes back (really satisfying to execute). Or after the last boss of Rabanastre jumps when he does the pulsating AoE. The skill has uses and it's fun to find them. When you can't use it to keep your stacks? Use Tornado Kick. That's why that skill was put into the game to begin with, and that's why we still have it.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Honestly, I was initially in the "Riddle of Earth Sucks!" camp, but having used it for a few months, I think it's the best designed and most satisfying feature SE added to Monk this expansion. Sure it doesn't prevent you losing your stacks in every situation, but it's not *supposed* to. It allows for there to be some skill in finding/optimising where it can be used in contrast with Tornado Kick, and encourages knowledge of a fight and player skill. Like, using it between the pushback of Decicive Battle in v4s, and the Holy hit so you can get a few extra seconds of GL to refresh it with a Coeurl move when he comes back (really satisfying to execute). Or after the last boss of Rabanastre jumps when he does the pulsating AoE.

Imagine every time you used nastrond on drg you lost heavy thrust and were locked out of your 4th combo finishers for 7 gcds. that's how it feels to lose Greased Lightning on Monk. In HW TK was a welcome addition because EVERYONE suffered from ridiculous buff management so it was easier to TK when you knew it would drop, But you also knew everyone elses was gonna drop too. They eased everyone else up with SB, except Monks. Sure they gave us RoE to counter having to use Tornado Kick. But why make it such a gimmick? Why not just instantly refresh your current GL timer to max? Like BotD does (well 20s out of 30s). Why require a hit to activate it? TK, RoE, Perfect Balance and Form shift all compete for GL3 Maintenance. Dragoon has 1 button to press. BLM has 1 button to press. We have 4 buttons that interact with keeping, expending or refreshing GL3. GL3 bumped to 20s, PB dropped to 60 or 80s, TK moved to the chakra system so it actually sees a use in aoe situations maybe, RoE refreshing GL timer instantly, or having form shift refresh it after coeurl form would cut those 4 buttons down to like, 2, 1 if they actually just stuck it to form shift. PB could be used as a min max tool. RoE could be used for raid aoe Defense mitigation instead. They've took Monk's GL and made it the most backwards crap to keep up. I agree that when RoE works it feels good. But what about the times it doesn't work? Where you pop it, the cast finishes for the attack but takes 2 seconds for the damage to come out so you lose GL3 because of waiting on animations. On Samurai, if i pop third eye before the casts finishes. I still get the eyes open effect. The game will screw a monk over wherever it can when it comes to timers.

[SpeckledBurd]

Sure it doesn't prevent you losing your stacks in every situation, but it's not *supposed* to. It allows for there to be some skill in finding/optimising where it can be used in contrast with Tornado Kick, and encourages knowledge of a fight and player skill.

If Monk isn't "supposed" to keep it's stacks at all points, why is Monk the only job that runs into situations where keeping GL3 is flat out impossible through a transition when BLM, DRG, and NIN have no such problems with their respective buffs? It's gotten to the point where Monk has more skills to manage to maintain our job buff than other similar jobs that rely on keeping a buff up but we're still the worst at maintaining it by a long shot. Monk basically just gets arbitrarily screwed by fight design, just cause.

Dragoon literally just has to use Blood of the Dragon, Black Mage has Enochian and Transpose, and Ninja has armor crush. Monk has Form Shift, Tornado Kick, Riddle of Earth and Perfect Balance. It's absurd and way against the notion of Stormblood being about reducinng button bloat.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly, I was initially in the "Riddle of Earth Sucks!" camp, but having used it for a few months, I think it's the best designed and most satisfying feature SE added to Monk this expansion. Sure it doesn't prevent you losing your stacks in every situation, but it's not *supposed* to. It allows for there to be some skill in finding/optimising where it can be used in contrast with Tornado Kick, and encourages knowledge of a fight and player skill. Like, using it between the pushback of Decicive Battle in v4s, and the Holy hit so you can get a few extra seconds of GL to refresh it with a Coeurl move when he comes back (really satisfying to execute). Or after the last boss of Rabanastre jumps when he does the pulsating AoE. The skill has uses and it's fun to find them. When you can't use it to keep your stacks? Use Tornado Kick. That's why that skill was put into the game to begin with, and that's why we still have it.

You cannot lose that much, divorced from any possibility driven by player control, and say that GL3 needs not be maintained 100% of the time, by RoE or otherwise. Monk simply does not have that kind of lead, nor should it: it should not be dependent on fights not having extended jump phases in order to be viable. That would be asinine. Or rather, it would then be left to remain asinine.

Now, by all means argue that RoE shouldn't be sole solution. Sure. Why should anything be? But consider:

For something to be a class mechanic, it must be able to be influenced by the player itself, at all times. This was true when we could precisely time our Coeurls to the final GCD of a Jump (especially for those with parsers and damn good eyeballing). It has not been true since. RoE merely circumvents the mechanic in certain circumstances, while providing nothing in the remainder. TK attempts to give it alternate reward, and therefore works in a broader range of situations, but as it so clearly inferior to GL maintenance, this merely becomes a type check, rather than a real decision: if GL3 cannot be maintained, free damage via TK. If it can, do not gimp damage via TK. At present, the team as a whole can push a jump such that it goes off directly Coeurl or directly before Coeurl, a range even now of 2 GCDs to how much downtime a Monk can handle, and certain jumps just become irrelevant because you have RoE. But there is nothing, lest you call that simple application of a very long Earth's Reply buff before the damage arrives sizeable player skillgap, the Monk itself can do about it.

Moreover, for a mechanic to ever feel like a reward to maximize, rather than a punishment to lose, it needs to have something like exponential difficulty or preperation required to be maximized such that maximization is rare, and it needs to be balanced around a state that is less than maximization.

Imagine, for instance, if GL was not a fixed duration, but instead extended by relative potency dealt (potency of all weaponskills, DoT ticks, and abilities, as per their multipliers). While GL could still be advanced by Coeurl moves, perhaps even technically to an infinite level, each ascended level burns through that duration more quickly, whereupon it descends to the previous level. You would be fighting for every precious second of GL4, but it would be always there, always possible, and would thereby again allow further modular control. Have both a single-burner (new) and all-burner (Tornado Kick) ability by which to quickly manipulate GL downwards. Now, after due tuning, the whole spectrum is in your hands: it's now a real mechanic, and its heights actually feel like rewards, not just the initial requirement for dealing halfway acceptable damage.

[Mahrze]

Moreover, for a mechanic to ever feel like a reward to maximize, rather than a punishment to lose, it needs to have something like exponential difficulty or preparation required to be maximized such that maximization is rare, and it needs to be balanced around a state that is less than maximization.

Imagine, for instance, if GL was not a fixed duration, but instead extended by relative potency dealt (potency of all weaponskills, DoT ticks, and abilities, as per their multipliers). While GL could still be advanced by Coeurl moves, perhaps even technically to an infinite level, each ascended level burns through that duration more quickly, whereupon it descends to the previous level. You would be fighting for every precious second of GL4, but it would be always there, always possible, and would thereby again allow further modular control. Have both a single-burner (new) and all-burner (Tornado Kick) ability by which to quickly manipulate GL downwards. Now, after due tuning, the whole spectrum is in your hands: it's now a real mechanic, and its heights actually feel like rewards, not just the initial requirement for dealing halfway acceptable damage.

Or to simplify, like a manual transmission on a car for you to rev up or down. Though keeping TK as an all-burner with its current potency still feels niche and i can even add bland considering the loss, but the rev up/down is indeed an idea I can see on MNK.

No one, especially not me, is telling GL sustaining is fine and fair.

The point is just : things cannot be compaired if they aren't comparable. Armor crush can only be compared to whatever extend the duration of GL : coeurl form strikes. Telling that nin doesn't have to refresh it 3 times as Armor crush is a decision that can be delayed and coeurl form attacks are an automatic cycle. Give +15s to huton on aeolian edge and shadow fang and no one will ever touch AC anymore, because it's a decision, and Coeurl form attacks aren't.

The punishing aspect is none to be compared, because the whole design of GL was turned, as the heavy positionnal, to the relative difficulty to properly play MNK and be top DPS. However, this design is flawed now, and monk is just one amongst other DPS and nothing is a justification to it's exigency.

I mean we can be pedantic about it to how each gimmick works and how in that sense, none are comparable. But the point from it is not the specifics, but what you clarify in the end. MNK is still the job with the biggest circus to achieve nominal results on par with its peers.