Built-in Parsers

[MoroMurasaki]

more antecdotes, rudeness, etc.

An antecdote (or, in this case, antecdotal evidence) is anyone's personal experience being used as part of the reasoning for a specific decision. Based on your post I thought you might need that clarified. At one point you say something "isn't an antecdotal" because multiple people in this thread have had a similar experience. That does not change the fact that anyone telling a story about their experience without hard evidence to back it up (video, chat logs, whatever) is putting forth an antecdote.

Literally everything in your post (well, everything you put forth as a reason to not have ingame parsers at least - not the rude, snippy remarks you make at people) is antecdotal. They are a bunch of stories about you and your girlfriend.

Do you understand the problem with allowing antecdotal evidence (especially highly contested antecdotal evidence like yours) to weigh in to a discussion is? It can be made up. You can tell all the stories about parser toxicity you want - where is the proof? You don't have any.

You might argue that we take you at your word - okay, fine, but what about all the other people who are saying their experiences with parsers are very different from yours? If we take you at your word we have to extend the same courtesy to them. Now we have two opposing views that are both supposed to be true, that can't possibly be though.

Do you understand why all your stories are pointless yet? At least in the context of this discussion?

I would love to sit here and rip into this post and quote little bits of it where you were incredibly rude but I don't have enough charge left on my phone for that. I'm sure others will. You are on here insulting some of the nicest, most helpful people I've found on the internet and calling them rude for responding to you? I'm pretty disgusted by that, honrstly.

If you're getting so many negative replies to your posts doesn't it make you stop and think for even a second? That you might be wrong on at least some of this?

It should. You are. Please stop.

[Miste]

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you. No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

No one was rude until you started labeling people "elitist" and telling them to grow up.

Simply disagreeing with you is not rude.

[HyoMinPark]

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you. No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

You talk about how rude it is to pick fights with other people, yet here you are: still picking fights with everyone who disagrees with you. Still calling people names; calling people rude for calling you out on your own condescension and rudeness.

Also, the definition of anecdote:

Anecdote
—noun

1. a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.
2. a short, obscure historical or biographical account.

Anecdotal
—adjective

1. pertaining to, resembling, or containing anecdotes: an anecdotal history of jazz.

2. (of the treatment of subject matter in representational art) pertaining to the relationship of figures or to the arrangement of elements in a scene so as to emphasize the story content of a subject. Compare narrative (def 6).

3. based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

There. Now that you have the definition of anecdote and ancedotal, perhaps you can start to use them correctly. Which you have not been doing this entire back-and-forth.

From my past mmo, and endgame experience + coil + extremes most of my deaths had been due to healers not healing. I also never said ppl are immune to mistakes, but if people lack communication they are partly at fault for a run going south. People just don't wanna be told they are at fault. They rather point fingers.

Healers not healing? They’re at fault for failing to fulfill their designated role in a duty. Not you, not the tanks, not the other DPS, not the entire party. Just the healers are at fault. If they weren’t topping people off, and people went down because of it, it is no one’s fault than their’s.

How and why does a healer need communication to say “RAID WIDE AOE DAMAGE PLEASE HEAL PEOPLE”? That should be inherent, especially if they are attempting endgame content. If a healer doesn’t know by the time they reach endgame that they need to heal people, they shouldn’t be doing that content. Heck, they shouldn’t be a healer period.

I'm not being passive aggressive. I met ppl in many mmo with similar mindset, and most of the time they are rude. I personally find a few of the post are rude for no reason. Some of yours some of theirs, some of other peoples.

Like your posts are rude for no reason?

And please stop with the generalizations and assumptions. You don’t want people to assume things about you, but it’s okay for you to just assume things about them?

Rude as in claiming I don't run content cuz I don't got mounts. Claim I didn't play 30 mmo the long term, which is easy in this day and age.

You have said yourself you have done no Alexander Savage or Omega Savage, yet you are sitting here trying to argue over mechanics that you have no idea what they are because you haven’t done/don’t do the content. Tank doesn’t mitigate Punishing Heat, a glaringly obvious tankbuster? They are at fault; not the healer, not the OT, not any of the DPS. A healer screws up Unstable Gravity in V2S and doesn’t get knocked back for Tank/Healer Long Drop, killing all 4 DPS? They are at fault. Same as if it was a DPS that didn’t get knocked back during DPS Long Drop, and who killed both tanks and both healers. Yet you continue to argue these mechanics and more in content you have never done. So you do not have the right expertise to sit here and argue with us over them.

Really, what you’re doing isn’t arguing, but trying to deflect and/or redirect the blame to the party. I’m sorry, but, as a BRD, if the tank doesn’t use a CD and dies, that is his fault. Not mine. It’s not my job to tell him “Now, PLD, please use Sentinel for that tankbuster—oh, nevermind.” Players in Savage and Ex content should know how to play their job, and not need someone to tell them: “That’s a tankbuster, please mitigate it next time.” “...I asked you to mitigate it...” “POP A COOLDOWN, PLEASE.” Even in learning groups, after dying to the mechanic once, a tank should realize “Damn, that hurts a lot. I need to use [cooldown] there so I don’t die.” Same thing for healers with AOE healing: “Dimensional Wave kind of hurts; I should definitely have Medica II pre-casting and ready there.” Or “I should use my Indom there” or “Aspected Benefic time!”.

People like duelgunner who stuff apparently that my posts go above their head. I think you guys need to take a steo back and SLOWLY read your posts. you guys do come off aggressive, like heaven forbid people not want parser. People who don't, have experience mostly negative from the people who used them. And you lot are not helping with how some of your posts come off.

Perhaps you should consider your own advice, and think about how your posts come off. When myself and the other posters who respond to you fight to remain civil, even in light of the condescending emotes and name-calling (which, yes, you have done, in case you have forgotten).

I’ve already read through this reply three times trying to remain cordial, though it’s extremely hard to do at this point.

I just gave my 2 cents, and instead of a discussion on the how/why im just told I'm wrong "because" . How is that a discussion? Maybe stop assuming peoples mindset and actually talk instead of assuming.

No, what you have done is argue that you’re right, and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or rude and/or “an E”. You haven’t really added anything to this discussion other than paint more anti-parser users in a negative light. Not all anti-parser users are like you, I’m sure, but you aren’t doing the “no parser” side any favors with your behavior.

As for the “because”, that is false. Everyone gave you reasons as to why you were wrong. You just choose to ignore them because they destroy any and all of your arguments. I’m not going to list them all here—the walls of text posters left in response to you are there for others to see and judge.

you know you can be less rude about replying to him and it isn't much an anecdotal, as a few people in this thread have had similar experience. Being dismissive over the experience of others doesn't help foster a good discussion.

I wasn’t being rude. I personally found it more rude to say “How many MMOs have you played?” when that has no bearing on a discussion centered around a single MMO and a built in feature in THAT SPECIFIC MMO. And please, once again, refer to the definitions of what “anecdote” and “anecdotal” means.

DCUO has a built in parser, and imo it ruined the community. Instead of working as a team, people solo'ed trying to be number 1.

This is an opinion (as you say, “imo”). This is a PERSONAL OBSERVATION with no scientific or quantifiable data to back it up. This is a personal experience. Therefore, it is anecdotal.

My g/f and I quit wow (at different times) simple due the community require you have a parser.

My g.f got lvl 46 warlock, and tried joining a guild to meet ppl. Every she asked guild required her to DL a list of add on, she explained she wasn't allowed to DL addons due to sharing a pc, and every reply she got back was "your lazy" "you're just looking for a carry"

I quit for similar reasons, the community wasn't great and too many requirements for something simple. WoWcrendor has several joke videos about it lol.

More anecdotes.

it really depends on the ff11 server, and when you played parser were not a huge thing around ps2 NA launch, it was around 2006-2008 that parser started ti be a thing with windower. and 2008-2011 with abyssea is went people were extremely cruel about them. raging in people for not gear swapping, even if they had no gear to do so. This is just during exp groups too. till the mentality switch to large leech fests using dungeon books.

This seems like more anecdotes, since I still don’t see any quantifiable evidence to back up these claims. I have friends who played FFXI and LOVED IT. Never had anything negative to say about the community—one still occasionally plays it and got another one of my friends into it. But again, that is another anecdotal experience based off of their personal observations. Not quantifiable. Not solid evidence that parsers destroy communities.

The one day I played FFXI, while there weren’t many players around, the ones that were, were nice. They actually said hello to me and greeted me as a new player. That never happened when I first started playing FFXIV. But again, my personal experience doesn’t say anything about either community as a whole. Unless there is quantitative data showing “Parsers destroyed FFXI” or “Parsers make FFXIV players mean”, no one can say for sure, without a doubt, 100% truth, that either case is the case.

please look up what cherry picking means As well as assumption.

Dualgunner is not cherry-picking your posts. She responded to them in full, the exact opposite of what cherry-picking is. For others that didn’t respond to your ramblings in full, perhaps they just don’t have the energy to repeat themselves, or repeat what others have already said. If you want an example of cherry-picking, here is one: “John cherry-picked the verses from the Bible that he chose to live by, rather than live by the Bible as a whole.” Again, considering that dualgunner, myself, and so many others have tried to respond to your posts in full, and not just pick pieces to “attack” and ignore the rest, that’s not cherry-picking.

Dualgunner bringing up your statement of parsers is just her showing that you’re contradicting yourself with an earlier statement: “I never said I was against parsers”, yet you claimed “Parsers destroy communities.” That’s an insinuation that you’re very much against them, or at least view them negatively, and not neutrally.

I also love how you call people out for supposed assumptions, which you just assume people are being inherently rude when they respond to something they disagree with. Disagreement =/= rudeness. Miste is probably the least rude person I know on this forum, yet you called her rude.

You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative. Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out.

"hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage? then wait for a yes or no. If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.

And yet, if that person is refusing to listen to advice and refusing to improve, why should a party be forced to deal with them? They very obviously aren’t willing to cooperate with the group (something you keep preaching—group content is group content, and all members should cooperate with the others); why should the group carry them through content if they aren’t going to pull their weight? Such things you don’t even need a parser to see (e.g., a Bard not keeping up Straight Shot or using songs, a DRG not using BotD or Heavy Thrust, a NIN not using Mudras, etc.).

I do my best to offer advice for jobs I am well-versed in in-game, and for fights that I am familiar with, but the minute someone I give advice to (be it for jobs or mechanics) gets snippy with me, they have lost all sense of deserving any sort of respect or courtesy. Respect and courtesy are things you earn, not things you demand.

also that is not saying the tool is bad, the community around the tool is bad.

Which is a broad generalization that you cannot support with anything other than personal experience and anecdotal evidence. Ever stopped to consider, if you are having so many negative experiences, perhaps the problem doesn’t lie with others, but with yourself?

[Nezia]

snip

Hey .
Here.
Pst.
Here here!
I will tell you a secret!
Most PC players that do ex/savage content run parsers, yet Gridania is not on fire. Don't tell anyone, k?

[akaneakki]

and

Fyi I played FFXI from 2003 to 2009. With months of break. You said first FFXI then you said just now it depends on server. You suddenly change your mind. I know what Windower Was, hell I even know what FFXIapp was. Dont just say parser toxic shit depended on server when you said FFXI. Also saying there are no mechanics that can one shot a group in Ff14 also makes me belive you dont know what the hell you talk about. And please don't talk like you have experience when you clearly just said you never did finnish omega savage for example. There was a lot of 1 shot shit in second coil too btw. Allganfield that was excuted proppely, groups faul when 1 guy is doing something weird with it? Or killing the big add you need to use for shriek in turn 7? People putting the yellow mark wrong way in turn 6 and gets the whole group eaten? I could go on for days about this honestly.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you.

No, rude would be posting this to the sheer nonsense this post comprises of. See, when I want to be rude, you'll know.

No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

Yet you have accused literally everyone who had the gull to disagree with His Holiness Big Red they are rude. Furthermore, you go on the assume their stance on parses based solely on your bias opinion. Since you're ever so fond of suggesting people "look up" definition. I advise you look up what hypocrite means.

From my past mmo, and endgame experience + coil + extremes most of my deaths had been due to healers not healing. I also never said ppl are immune to mistakes, but if people lack communication they are partly at fault for a run going south. People just don't wanna be told they are at fault. They rather point fingers.

And if they do communicate or it's a farm party where everyone should know the mechanics, if the healers can't heal through AoE damage, it isn't the fault of the DPS for dying. That is a ludicrous notion that highlights your nonsensical hypocrisy. Not more than a few pages ago, you said:

never in mmo is 1 person at fault for 8 ppl dying. everyone has their fair share in the blame, no matter what "examples" you try to use, you are missing details on how/why that even happen. just pointing out the end result.

That is a direct contradiction to the above. If people can make mistakes, then they can be responsible for wiping a full party due to said mistake.

Rude as in claiming I don't run content cuz I don't got mounts. Claim I didn't play 30 mmo the long term, which is easy in this day and age.

You said:

i actually do said content jusy not at the moment, and i skipped alexander S because it simply wasn't my thing.

iPeople like Dualgunner* who stuff apparently that my posts go above their head. I think you guys need to take a steo back and SLOWLY read your posts. you guys do come off aggressive, like heaven forbid people not want parser. People who don't, have experience mostly negative from the people who used them. And you lot are not helping with how some of your posts come off.

Let me make something abundantly clear. My current response to you has nothing whatsoever to do with parses but towards your misinformed, hypocritical and rude attitude. Delete ACT tomorrow and I'd change absolutely nothing in my response. Stop being a tool and take some accountability, Mr. "i got 30+ mmo under my belt, i got 10 years of mmo under my belt."

I just gave my 2 cents, and instead of a discussion on the how/why im just told I'm wrong "because" . How is that a discussion? Maybe stop assuming peoples mindset and actually talk instead of assuming.

They were returned due to high volumes of irony.

you know you can be less rude about replying to him and it isn't much an anecdotal, as a few people in this thread have had similar experience. Being dismissive over the experience of others doesn't help foster a good discussion.

so please.. grow up and stop being an E.

I can only assume "elitist"? Either way, there's that pesky hypocrisy again. Really ought to look up that word.

My g.f got lvl 46 warlock, and tried joining a guild to meet ppl. Every she asked guild required her to DL a list of add on, she explained she wasn't allowed to DL addons due to sharing a pc, and every reply she got back was "your lazy" "you're just looking for a carry"

Anecdotal issues aside, you do realize people can and do already do this in FFXIV, yes? I can have a parse running and kick you for low DPS without ever uttering two words. I can also outright acknowledge I'm kicking you for low DPS. How? I just point to a nebulous example like "I watched your rotation." Funny how you continuously attribute toxicity towards parses yet there are two examples where I never mention having one. Now before you attempt to argue never having said parsers ruin MMOs. Just remember!

I did endgame in ff11 for 4 years before this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative. Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out.

so please.. grow up and stop being an E.

"hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage? then wait for a yes or no. If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.

Player 1: "Want some tips to increase damage?"
Player 2: "Fuck off. Don't tell me how to play my job."
Player 2: *wipes to Tidal Wave*
Player 2: "WTF HEALERS? ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!"

According to the school of Big Red, Player 1's at fault for not communicating better. After all...

never in mmo is 1 person at fault for 8 ppl dying. everyone has their fair share in the blame, no matter what "examples" you try to use, you are missing details on how/why that even happen. just pointing out the end result.

---------

Emoticons brought to you by extremely high doses of sarcasm.

[Dualgunner]

please look up what cherry picking means As well as assumption.

cher·ry-pick
ˈCHerēˌpik/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cherry-picking
1.
selectively choose (the most beneficial items) from what is available.
"the company should buy the whole airline and not just cherry-pick its best assets"

Somehow "quoting the whole post verbatim" doesn't seem to fit that. Also where do assumptions come in? Are you talking about my doubt for your claims of MMO experience? That's not an assumption, that's just doubt. To be sure though:
doubt
[dout]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
verb (used with object)
1.
to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.

as·sume
əˈso͞om/Submit
verb
1.
suppose to be the case, without proof.

They're different terms to the point they can even interact with each other: you can doubt an assumption.

You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative.

How so? Because I'm not only disagreeing with you, I'm showing you that many of the points you're making are invalid?

Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out. "hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage?

"Hey X, I noticed you aren't keeping up straight shot through the fight. It would greatly benefit your damage and help us over the enrage hurdle if you did that."

Ya know, these two sound shockingly similar to me. Neither are forcing advice down someone's throat, though mine does make a passive observation about something that may have been noticed about another player's gamestyle.

If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.

If he says no / don't press it, like the player in my hypothetical did, is it still the leader's fault that they're playing terribly? If so, you created a no-win situation in your frankly desperate attempts to be right.

also that is not saying the tool is bad, the community around the tool is bad.

Allow me to regale you with another one then:

DCUO has a built in parser, and imo it ruined the community.

Parsers could not have ruined a community (again, in your opinion (again, anecdote and meaningless)) if they were not bad. Therefore you claiming that they did means you inherently believe that parsers, the tool, are bad.

While you sit in your armchair pretending people are cherrypicking your posts, it seems like you're not even bothering to read the responses. Glass houses.

EDIT: I hit quote reply on the page this was posted in, didn't see the epic responses from Bourne, Moro, and HyoMin too. It's 5am for me, and I just finished a paper for class so I only focused on the part specifically addressing me >w<

[akaneakki]

l

He even said that healers wiped his whole group in coil. Yet he says it's a group wipe because yeah.. it was the groups fault. When he clearly said healers didnt top them up.

[Estelle9lives]

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

This is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

It's not a matter of excluding people, if you are under performing badly for the end game content you signed up for, I'm sorry but you have no place there - specially on a party that already has 7 other people ready to clear and are being held back by a single individual. In this case said player should take a step back, and do their research on their job.. Everyone has the right to learn, but no one has a right to ruin other people's fun and make the instance a frustrating experience. Excluding people already happens with the current parse, so that point is moot. What I would like is for people to be able to see their numbers and have a drive to improve, as many seem to be ignorant on how bad they are doing.

I helped some people clear O1S and there were instances where I was outdps'ing actual DPS players on a White Mage. This is also a common occurence on Ex Roulette - I'm not expecting people to perform at world level on roulettes, of course, but being able to outdps your healer in single target damage is the bare minimum I'd ask. Maybe - just maybe if they could see their actual numbers they'd think "damn, I could do better".

The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

Why exactly do people think making parses official is suddenly going to transform everyone into a complete jerk? This tool is already widely used. You act as every higher performance player who does a roulette goes around kicking people because they didn't reach 99% of their damage potential. As long as SE keep their policy of no harassment regarding DPS numbers (which is VERY strict, mind you), I think people's attitudes would hardly change.

[akaneakki]

This is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

Not only is this a horrible attitude but this also breeds bad players. It's pretty much saying; hey it's okay to be bad so we gonna do it for ya. If someone is a bad performer they can't be in the group, knowing this person can't either do mechanics or dps or both. It's simple. When 7 people can do it why can't the last one too? Like honestly too many players in the game let the bad players get away, thats also a reason why many are bad in the first place. Second reason is when they actually get told, they will think we are just saying it to offend them. There is so many reasons for why they think it's offensive but there is clearly one that makes them believe so: Players who say it's fine to be bad and let them keep doing it.