Built-in Parsers

[Aster_E]

Also, I feel you have a very binary vision about players who use parsers and fflogs, as if they were all the same "bad" people and "elitists".

Then you are clearly not seeing what I read correctly. Read it again, and keep reading, until you recognize the gray area any simple-minded person can extrapolate from what I stated, as well, as how I never once insulted fflogs users as a whole, and even stated how the tool can be fine in the right hands. Or, can you not parse words very well?

just a few questions, wouldn't you want to know how you performed in a fight ?

Short answer: No

Long Answer: As long as I'm following mechanics and doing my part with whichever role I'm playing at the time, and we happen to win, I don't need to know unless I see how I can improve well enough on my own. Then I will. I don't need numbers to tell me how high my contribution is on Drk, Whm, or Brd (my main three).

Or, during progression, being able to see what caused a wipe, what can be improved, why the dps check wasn't reached ?

The last time my dps was ever problematic was in early Heavensward, during Bismarck Ex, when we Bards needed to adjust to our lengthy cast bars (high SkS wasn't likely for most people), deal with the loss of 20% of our dps from auto-attacks being turned off for the promise of another 20% dps being added for the Minuet (that was adjusted later to 30%), and hope that our dots crit enough times since the crit stat also wasn't high enough to matter for beans for level 60s just yet. My dots weren't critting often enough when it actually mattered back then, and the slow cast times during that period were so sluggish that I ended up not touching Bard again, save for grabbing the relic, until 3.3 when Crit, Det, and SkS were all high enough that it didn't feel like I was sacrificing anything to put so many points into one or two of the others. Then my Bard felt like an aggro-stealing beast again, even with the forsaken cast bars (that were no longer quite as bad).

So no, my concerns with meeting DPS aren't that bad. If I was concerned with progression in a fight, I would just learn the mechanics and hope that everyone else does so as well. A parse doesn't tell you that someone didn't do Fang and Claw correctly in NidEx. A parse doesn't tell you that people didn't stand next to their partners in matching colors during Broken Seal in ZurvEx. A parse doesn't tell you that half of a 24-man alliance didn't bother to move during the second boss of Rabanastre. Though, the parse might show a drop-off of numbers, it won't tell you that Timmy or Barbara didn't break their chain in the end boss of the Vault.

There are informations only a parser can provide, and regarding FFlogs, it's an extremly powerfull tool that's not limited to an "epeen" scale.

*is information
("Information" is a non-countable noun)

*extremely
*powerful

And, once again, I'm not harking on FFlogs. Please re-acquaint yourself with words. That is all.

[Deithwen]

snip

First of all, english isn't my native language, so yeah, it might not be perfect.

Maybe you don't feel the need to know how you perform. That doesn't mean you're performing well. Only numbers can tell you how well you perform. The rest is mecanics knowledge.

And for your information, a parse is not just a dps meter, and provides you with a lot of information, everything you listed :
"A parse doesn't tell you that someone didn't do Fang and Claw correctly in NidEx. A parse doesn't tell you that people didn't stand next to their partners in matching colors during Broken Seal in ZurvEx. A parse doesn't tell you that half of a 24-man alliance didn't bother to move during the second boss of Rabanastre. Though, the parse might show a drop-off of numbers, it won't tell you that Timmy or Barbara didn't break their chain in the end boss of the Vault."
can be extracted from a parse.

[Aster_E]

First of all, english isn't my native language, so yeah, it might not be perfect.

Maybe you don't feel the need to know how you perform. That doesn't mean you're performing well. Only numbers can tell you how well you perform. The rest is mecanics knowledge.

Pardon, those spelling corrections were simply me providing you with some help so you have a reference for later. Also: "mechanics." I had even included the spelling in my previous post that you were so quick to cut to point out that you're not native to this abomination of a language. Kudos to you for trying at least, by the way.

As to whether or not I'm performing well, on Bard rotation at this point for example, it comes down to my gear, whether or not the enemy I'm fighting lasts long enough for a rotation--because it can be annoying if I'm about to Barrage + Refulgent Arrow something and it jumps into the air, unable to be targeted until Barrage and Straighter Shot both wear off--and whether or not Straighter Shot even procs because that Refulgent Arrow is a beautiful thing when we can actually use it. I can see the difference, generally, in the health bars of bosses when Refulgent Arrow can or cannot be used, when Pitch Perfect hits the third note often enough, and so on. It is a rather proc-based job, in addition to the resources we provide, but when it works, it devastates and makes quite the difference per phase. No, I don't need the damage meter; that is not a feeling but a fact.

Mechanics matter most to me in any fight. Mechanical knowledge of a fight entertains me, and has even left me giggling like a schoolgirl gone mad on a couple occasions because I enjoy them. I'm not a hardcore raider, but good gods do I enjoy what fights have to offer? I mean, that's as long as the sole mechanic isn't a just pure dps race or two, with a middle phase that's another dps race to kill or destroy stuff before the whole group wipes to a large attack; that is generally boring and has been since before it was used by almost every boss in Heavensward. Give me the baited AOEs of Thordan's Reign or Nidhogg's Rage. Give me towers like seen in Sephirot, Coil, and Thordan. Give me a dance partner like in Zurvan Ex. Give me a healing target like those dragon heads in Shinryu Ex. I will gladly take them and more.

And for your information, a parse is not just a dps meter, and provides you with a lot of information, everything you listed : [ . . . ] can be extracted from a parse.

Amusing how you say this without evidence or further elaboration. The way you are currently making it sound, a parse simply tells you how to play this game, rather than you figuring it out for yourself. Would you care to build upon this, leaving nothing unclear and without debate as to how it works? Furthermore, would you like to state why it is, exactly, that everyone I've met who uses a parse only seems to do so for the damage meter?

[Deithwen]

Snip

I'll try to answer to your questions.
A parser, as it says parses everything from the combat log, and even more. For instance, let's say you're progressing on high level, someone dies at some point, you and your group don't understand how it happened because you were busy dealing with your own mecanichs or else. With that parser you can point the precise moment when it happened and list the damages that killed that person, also see what buffs or debuff he had and clearly understand what happened, allowing you to find out how to prevent that in the future.

For nidex you can see that the damages you took actually healed the tower, for Zurvan you can see the damages dealt by the chain if you're too far. etc. it won't teach you how to deal precisely with every mechanics in the game, but during progression it provides great information on what's happening and what causes a wipe, allowing you to take measures tu counter that and learn from your mistakes.

Although, regarding people only using it as a DPS meter, that's right, some will just use it for that sole purpose.
And honestly, I don't find it that bad. They can use it as a tool to improve. Imagine you just clear Shinryu ex, and happened to be parsing the fight. You barely killed in time, but managed. Now you get into farm groups, and this time the group is competent, but there is a tiny bit less dps than the time where you killed it and end up wiping. The parse will show you that, on average the group lacked x amount of Dps, and you can also see who is underperforming, and try to help those person.

On the other hand, you can work on the damages you deal and improve as a bard to maximize your dps output. This has 3 benefits :
- you get better as a player
- you can compensate other's mistakes
- you can skip phases which means faster clears (great for farming) and less stress overall on the players (expecially the healers) and less room for mistakes

[Aster_E]

I'll try to answer to your questions.
A parser, as it says parses everything from the combat log, and even more. For instance, let's say you're progressing on high level, someone dies at some point, you and your group don't understand how it happened because you were busy dealing with your own mecanichs or else. With that parser you can point the precise moment when it happened and list the damages that killed that person, also see what buffs or debuff he had and clearly understand what happened, allowing you to find out how to prevent that in the future.

Thank you for your time on this. Now, this sounds like a nice feature, if only it were advertised better by the few dozen parsers I've encountered who only look at the outgoing damage meter and not at such things as buffs, debuffs, incoming circumstances, and so forth. That is, it can be quite nice, certainly, for people who need that extra set of eyes to tell them what went wrong. As a Bard and healer both, I have lost count of how many times I've witnessed a fight going south because: 1) people essentially "stood in the fire," 2) didn't stun an incoming big attack (or even something small but dangerous like Final Sting), or 3) simply weren't doing proper rotations for the size of the pull, despite having the resources (TP and MP) to use their abilities. All of these things I could easily see with my own eyes while still managing to do my own job, as can the majority of decent healers or better that I know. Funny enough, the few "decent or better" healers I've met you missed these things were either half-asleep OR were staring at the outgoing damage meters (and no other resource provided by the parse).

For nidex you can see that the damages you took actually healed the tower, for Zurvan you can see the damages dealt by the chain if you're too far. etc. it won't teach you how to deal precisely with every mechanics in the game, but during progression it provides great information on what's happening and what causes a wipe, allowing you to take measures tu counter that and learn from your mistakes.

I can concede the point you are trying to make with NidEx, regarding incoming damage from one or both staves exploding, people getting hit by blue orbs, or people taking damage from the stack mechanic; though, on the other hand, these are things ranged dps and healers alike can spot with ease, along with people with blue tethers standing in stacks when they don't need to or the same people getting hit by orbs. The one thing I don't do is name names when that happens since I keep joining alleged "farms" that turn into progression more often than not, but I do at least say "Hey, blue tethers are taking too much damage," or "red tethers aren't taking enough.

As for Zurvan, yes, that is a nice point, but it did not answer my question. I asked specifically about standing in your correct color (while your dance partner is nearby), not about staying close to your dance partner in general.

Although, regarding people only using it as a DPS meter, that's right, some will just use it for that sole purpose.
And honestly, I don't find it that bad. They can use it as a tool to improve. Imagine you just clear Shinryu ex, and happened to be parsing the fight. You barely killed in time, but managed. Now you get into farm groups, and this time the group is competent, but there is a tiny bit less dps than the time where you killed it and end up wiping. The parse will show you that, on average the group lacked x amount of Dps, and you can also see who is under-performing, and try to help those person.

Certainly, it can be alright in the right hands, as I said from my first post here. I have no problem with people using it if they honestly need some sort of comparison to where they CAN stand in a fight and where they can improve - the more power to them. It's people, however, who abuse this knowledge alone to only get big numbers in places where just decent ones will suffice, and they are my concern. There are far less of them, currently, in this game compared to a raiding game like WoW. Again, I don't name names. I tend to forget about them since they're relatively harmless at the moment.

On the other hand, you can work on the damages you deal and improve as a bard to maximize your dps output. This has 3 benefits :
- you get better as a player
- you can compensate other's mistakes
- you can skip phases which means faster clears (great for farming) and less stress overall on the players (expecially the healers) and less room for mistakes

("especially" by the way, and also just a heads-up but you made a minor lingual slip earlier and said "tu" instead of "you." It's no biggie.)

When my gear is up to date and I understand a fight enough to anticipate phase skips or changes, I do more than fine even when my Straighter Shot doesn't proc. Right now, the number one thing holding back my Bard is that the weapon is still only i310, and that's by a choice I made back when I thought we were getting relics in a few weeks from now (as opposed to whenever Eureka finally comes out, which might be 4.2, from what I understand).

-snip-

You made more assumptions or hand-waves here than I care to shake a stick at. To top it off, you missed a lot of points. Here's a short list of quick responses to your post here:

1) Answering one anecdote with another is not a solid argument. At best, unreliable hearsay versus unreliable hearsay is politics. At worst... let's just not. For that matter, let's not assume everything is an anecdote just because we do not agree with it.
2) No, Ultimate has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Adding any actual content is nothing compared to what I'm saying, at all. I'm referring to a QoL level feature that I am opposed to having in-game, but don't mind the right people using in general. (My apologies that you see people cry about Ultimate or the like, for whatever reason, since I like the idea of it)
3) I'm not saying a parser will be a jerk just for being a parser. Once again, and let me be perfectly clear right here, a parse is a tool. Bad people will use tools for bad reasons. Putting the tool inside of the game sends a signal to some, not all, such bad people that they are getting a thing that they want and thus must be right. Sounds like bad logic, right? The fallacy lies in those same individuals, not in the majority of parsers I have encountered.
4) Yes, there is more to Bard than Refulgent Arrow, just like there is more to the sky than being blue, or to water than being wet. I was not talking about the songs, which I do use in fights regularly.
5) I'm well aware of theory-crafters. They play the game in their own way. Furthermore, my question was to Señor Deithwen (note: I say that out of respect) specifically since it was he who brought this up to me. Thank you, however, for trying to respond to a question meant for him.
6) One more time, because it keeps on getting missed no matter how much I keep saying it, I see the good in some people who use the tool as it stands outside of the game, I see the bad, and I see the gray area in between.

[HyoMinPark]

You made more assumptions or hand-waves here than I care to shake a stick at. To top it off, you missed a lot of points. Here's a short list of quick responses to your post here:

So, because my points completely disagree with yours, they’re automatically considered assumptions or hand-waves? I went off exactly what you posted, and it sounded very black-and-white in terms of parsers to me. Your repeated use of calling raiders “toxic” and “elitist” didn’t really help your “arguments”, either. All it did was make it sound like one person personally wronged you in the past, and just happened to use a parser to do it.

I felt like I was extremely thorough in my responses to you—hardly the kind of dismissive “hand waves” behavior you’re claiming my responses to be. And while there my be assumptions and inferences in my posts, they are also present in yours.

1) Answering one anecdote with another is not a solid argument. At best, unreliable hearsay versus unreliable hearsay is politics. At worst... let's just not. For that matter, let's not assume everything is an anecdote just because we do not agree with it.

What you have stated is anecdote, unless you have raw data and numbers that can prove people “lord [parsers] over” other players, and that the implementation of a built-in parser in content where it matters will increase the amount of in-game harassment. You cannot do that, just how I cannot quantitatively prove that the harassment in this game via parser isn’t as high as people like to make it out to be, without relying on anecdotal experiences.

I raise to you your same argument: “let’s not assume everything is anecdote just because we do not agree with it.”

2) No, Ultimate has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Adding any actual content is nothing compared to what I'm saying, at all. I'm referring to a QoL level feature that I am opposed to having in-game, but don't mind the right people using in general. (My apologies that you see people cry about Ultimate or the like, for whatever reason, since I like the idea of it)

Then my apologies for thinking that you were speaking on behalf of Ultimate. I suppose you were trying to speak on behalf of a hypothetical situation that the developers were going to put in time and resources into making a built-in parser. However, I still don’t think it would actually take away from patch or expansion content.

To answer your Eureka wonderments, it was delayed for Patch 4.2 because the developers said they were having issues tuning the content. There have been more rumors that it may be delayed again to a 4.2 sub-patch for the same reasons. Same with SB relic stuff (something I’m particularly irked about, because I actually enjoy relic grinds), since it’s tied to Eureka.

3) I'm not saying a parser will be a jerk just for being a parser. Once again, and let me be perfectly clear right here, a parse is a tool. Bad people will use tools for bad reasons. Putting the tool inside of the game sends a signal to some, not all, such bad people that they are getting a thing that they want and thus must be right. Sounds like bad logic, right? The fallacy lies in those same individuals, not in the majority of parsers I have encountered.

You are saying exactly that though: you are assuming that, because a person has access to a parser, that he is going to act like a jerk just because he has such access, as if it’s going to be a direct cause of his jerk-ish-ness. Yes, bad people use tools for bad reasons, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to blame the tool, which is what it appears that you are doing with your posts. You place the blame on the person, not the tool they are using. This argument applies to a certain other...”tool”...that frequently shows up in real-life debates. The only difference now is that you replace the name of that particular other “tool” with “parser.”

If you remove the parser, the said jerk will still be a jerk regardless, just with other tools (we’ll use the vote kick system here as an example). Should the vote kick system be removed because a few people choose to abuse it? No. Because the vast majority do not act like complete twats, and use an in-game feature to do so. I firmly believe that parsers would act the same way. And, if they were limited to content where they actually matter (Ultimate, Savage, Ex trials), and were a toggable feature in PF, if a person doesn’t like the use of parsers, then don’t join a PF advertising parser use. Just like if a person doesn’t like “speed kills”, or a PF with a “minimum ilvl of 340” or something of the like.

4) Yes, there is more to Bard than Refulgent Arrow, just like there is more to the sky than being blue, or to water than being wet.

Then base your argument on how you “feel” you do more damage based on “HP bars” off of more than just Barrage + Refulgent, because that was all I really saw in that paragraph, aside from a mention of PP. The argument in and of itself is not an adequate, quantitative one anyways, and you cannot say with absolute certainty that you quantitatively know how much damage you are doing just by “watching HP bars when I get procs” versus “watching HP bars when I don’t get procs.” Like I said before, your “data” already falls apart because you don’t seem to consider the damage other players are dealing to said HP. So you cannot quantitatively say with absolute certainty that you are outputting sufficent damage without either using a parser, or hand-calculating your damage via Battle Log entries.

5) I'm well aware of theory-crafters. They play the game in their own way. Furthermore, my question was to Señor Deithwen (note: I say that out of respect) specifically since it was he who brought this up to me. Thank you, however, for trying to respond to a question meant for him.

The theorycrafters play this game “in their own way” to help other determined members figure out the best stats, and the best rotations. They are a prime example of using a parser for good, and while you claim to see all sides, you focus only on the bad. Which is why I consider your arguments to be very black and white.

Also, this is a discussion forum. I was unaware that I was not “allowed” to add in my two gil to a point that you clearly seem to be missing. Whether it be from another poster or not. You stated things that I disagreed with and/or found fault with, even if they were directed at another individual. I’m not really trying to explain anything on behalf of another poster—I’m just merely stating why I disagree with the things you have posted here.

6) One more time, because it keeps on getting missed no matter how much I keep saying it, I see the good in some people who use the tool as it stands outside of the game, I see the bad, and I see the gray area in between.

Then perhaps you should work on your debate skills, because a lot of your posts, like I said previously, come off as completely black and white: “parsers are bad”, “bad people will use parsers to harass”, “implementing parsers will give bad elitists the green light to harass the casual players”. Avoid using words just as “toxic” and “elitist”, because they just paint all of your arguments in an extremely negative light. Your arguments do not come off as particularly grey or neutral, in my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion as much as the next poster, but if you really are wanting to put parsers in a neutral light, and then argue against them in said neutrality, don’t use weighted words to try and back up your arguments like you did in one of your first posts in this thread.

[Aster_E]

-snip-

The fact that you're still only seeing the black and white in what I'm saying tells me there is no hope for this discussion. It's not my debate skills that are lacking here, though kudos on your borderline ad hominem. You, and you alone, are picking extremes out of my words that simply aren't there. I don't feel like repeating myself for the umpteenth time in this topic alone since my very clear statement still didn't make it through to you, so I'm going to go continue playing the game in the way I enjoy.

If you want to keep arguing, though, you can go right ahead since all it will do at this point is make you seem confrontational. Have fun.