Built-in Parsers

[Deithwen]

Providing an in game parser is not "allowing douchy behavior". It also doesn't prevent people "To have fun" because "It's a game".
If someone wants to use a parser for their personal improvement, and happen to play on PS4, they can't right now.

And yet you use those statements as arguments against parsers and if there was a logic behind.

[Aster_E]

Providing an in game parser is not "allowing douchy behavior". It also doesn't prevent people "To have fun" because "It's a game".
If someone wants to use a parser for their personal improvement, and happen to play on PS4, they can't right now.

And yet you use those statements as arguments against parsers and if there was a logic behind.

No, of course one thing such as an in-game parser is not enough on its own, even as it gives elitists a means to say "This is in the game now, so you better learn to use it!" Can you say in utmost honesty that no such thing will happen? Some folks already try to lord it over other people, which is presently against the game's Terms of Service, and for good reason. Then there is the all likelihood that the one thing--the in-game parser--is part of a slippery slope that I'm sure other more experienced MMO players can tell you about.

Things that elite players and wannabe elitists alike both want added or taken away.

Less time and resources given to non-raid content, save for generic collectibles, fetch quests, et cetera, because the already limited size of Team Yoshi is too focused on providing for the one type of player as opposed to the millions of players who enjoyed the game until that point.

What I stated was not an argument but, rather, a summation of arguments, oversimplified, to yield something resembling my opinion on the matter. From Yoshida's comments on parsers in the past, I suspect that he's in the same line of thinking there. In fact, he quite possibly has more details in mind than I do on the matter, just like other more experienced players of MMOs.

Again, a parse is fine as a tool for self-improvement, but there are people who can and will abuse the parser to the nth degree should we have an in-game parser. There are people already who try with fflogs. Not one person, but several people. Give them an inch/ilm, and they'll take more than a yard/yalm. Once they do, then things will become progressively worse for everyone else.

That's all the more I'm going to say on that.

[Deithwen]

snip

Of course some people will abuse it and that's why there is are report /black list means.
As it's been suggested in this thread, enabling parsers for premades in high difficulty content such as savage, utimate or maybe extreme primals and limiting it's use to these only would be a solution to limit bad behaviour.

Also, I feel you have a very binary vision about players who use parsers and fflogs, as if they were all the same "bad" people and "elitists".

just a few questions, wouldn't you want to know how you performed in a fight ? Or, during progression, being able to see what caused a wipe, what can be improved, why the dps check wasn't reached ? There are informations only a parser can provide, and regarding FFlogs, it's an extremly powerfull tool that's not limited to an "epeen" scale.

[Aster_E]

Also, I feel you have a very binary vision about players who use parsers and fflogs, as if they were all the same "bad" people and "elitists".

Then you are clearly not seeing what I read correctly. Read it again, and keep reading, until you recognize the gray area any simple-minded person can extrapolate from what I stated, as well, as how I never once insulted fflogs users as a whole, and even stated how the tool can be fine in the right hands. Or, can you not parse words very well?

just a few questions, wouldn't you want to know how you performed in a fight ?

Short answer: No

Long Answer: As long as I'm following mechanics and doing my part with whichever role I'm playing at the time, and we happen to win, I don't need to know unless I see how I can improve well enough on my own. Then I will. I don't need numbers to tell me how high my contribution is on Drk, Whm, or Brd (my main three).

Or, during progression, being able to see what caused a wipe, what can be improved, why the dps check wasn't reached ?

The last time my dps was ever problematic was in early Heavensward, during Bismarck Ex, when we Bards needed to adjust to our lengthy cast bars (high SkS wasn't likely for most people), deal with the loss of 20% of our dps from auto-attacks being turned off for the promise of another 20% dps being added for the Minuet (that was adjusted later to 30%), and hope that our dots crit enough times since the crit stat also wasn't high enough to matter for beans for level 60s just yet. My dots weren't critting often enough when it actually mattered back then, and the slow cast times during that period were so sluggish that I ended up not touching Bard again, save for grabbing the relic, until 3.3 when Crit, Det, and SkS were all high enough that it didn't feel like I was sacrificing anything to put so many points into one or two of the others. Then my Bard felt like an aggro-stealing beast again, even with the forsaken cast bars (that were no longer quite as bad).

So no, my concerns with meeting DPS aren't that bad. If I was concerned with progression in a fight, I would just learn the mechanics and hope that everyone else does so as well. A parse doesn't tell you that someone didn't do Fang and Claw correctly in NidEx. A parse doesn't tell you that people didn't stand next to their partners in matching colors during Broken Seal in ZurvEx. A parse doesn't tell you that half of a 24-man alliance didn't bother to move during the second boss of Rabanastre. Though, the parse might show a drop-off of numbers, it won't tell you that Timmy or Barbara didn't break their chain in the end boss of the Vault.

There are informations only a parser can provide, and regarding FFlogs, it's an extremly powerfull tool that's not limited to an "epeen" scale.

*is information
("Information" is a non-countable noun)

*extremely
*powerful

And, once again, I'm not harking on FFlogs. Please re-acquaint yourself with words. That is all.

[Deithwen]

snip

First of all, english isn't my native language, so yeah, it might not be perfect.

Maybe you don't feel the need to know how you perform. That doesn't mean you're performing well. Only numbers can tell you how well you perform. The rest is mecanics knowledge.

And for your information, a parse is not just a dps meter, and provides you with a lot of information, everything you listed :
"A parse doesn't tell you that someone didn't do Fang and Claw correctly in NidEx. A parse doesn't tell you that people didn't stand next to their partners in matching colors during Broken Seal in ZurvEx. A parse doesn't tell you that half of a 24-man alliance didn't bother to move during the second boss of Rabanastre. Though, the parse might show a drop-off of numbers, it won't tell you that Timmy or Barbara didn't break their chain in the end boss of the Vault."
can be extracted from a parse.

[Aster_E]

First of all, english isn't my native language, so yeah, it might not be perfect.

Maybe you don't feel the need to know how you perform. That doesn't mean you're performing well. Only numbers can tell you how well you perform. The rest is mecanics knowledge.

Pardon, those spelling corrections were simply me providing you with some help so you have a reference for later. Also: "mechanics." I had even included the spelling in my previous post that you were so quick to cut to point out that you're not native to this abomination of a language. Kudos to you for trying at least, by the way.

As to whether or not I'm performing well, on Bard rotation at this point for example, it comes down to my gear, whether or not the enemy I'm fighting lasts long enough for a rotation--because it can be annoying if I'm about to Barrage + Refulgent Arrow something and it jumps into the air, unable to be targeted until Barrage and Straighter Shot both wear off--and whether or not Straighter Shot even procs because that Refulgent Arrow is a beautiful thing when we can actually use it. I can see the difference, generally, in the health bars of bosses when Refulgent Arrow can or cannot be used, when Pitch Perfect hits the third note often enough, and so on. It is a rather proc-based job, in addition to the resources we provide, but when it works, it devastates and makes quite the difference per phase. No, I don't need the damage meter; that is not a feeling but a fact.

Mechanics matter most to me in any fight. Mechanical knowledge of a fight entertains me, and has even left me giggling like a schoolgirl gone mad on a couple occasions because I enjoy them. I'm not a hardcore raider, but good gods do I enjoy what fights have to offer? I mean, that's as long as the sole mechanic isn't a just pure dps race or two, with a middle phase that's another dps race to kill or destroy stuff before the whole group wipes to a large attack; that is generally boring and has been since before it was used by almost every boss in Heavensward. Give me the baited AOEs of Thordan's Reign or Nidhogg's Rage. Give me towers like seen in Sephirot, Coil, and Thordan. Give me a dance partner like in Zurvan Ex. Give me a healing target like those dragon heads in Shinryu Ex. I will gladly take them and more.

And for your information, a parse is not just a dps meter, and provides you with a lot of information, everything you listed : [ . . . ] can be extracted from a parse.

Amusing how you say this without evidence or further elaboration. The way you are currently making it sound, a parse simply tells you how to play this game, rather than you figuring it out for yourself. Would you care to build upon this, leaving nothing unclear and without debate as to how it works? Furthermore, would you like to state why it is, exactly, that everyone I've met who uses a parse only seems to do so for the damage meter?

[Deithwen]

Snip

I'll try to answer to your questions.
A parser, as it says parses everything from the combat log, and even more. For instance, let's say you're progressing on high level, someone dies at some point, you and your group don't understand how it happened because you were busy dealing with your own mecanichs or else. With that parser you can point the precise moment when it happened and list the damages that killed that person, also see what buffs or debuff he had and clearly understand what happened, allowing you to find out how to prevent that in the future.

For nidex you can see that the damages you took actually healed the tower, for Zurvan you can see the damages dealt by the chain if you're too far. etc. it won't teach you how to deal precisely with every mechanics in the game, but during progression it provides great information on what's happening and what causes a wipe, allowing you to take measures tu counter that and learn from your mistakes.

Although, regarding people only using it as a DPS meter, that's right, some will just use it for that sole purpose.
And honestly, I don't find it that bad. They can use it as a tool to improve. Imagine you just clear Shinryu ex, and happened to be parsing the fight. You barely killed in time, but managed. Now you get into farm groups, and this time the group is competent, but there is a tiny bit less dps than the time where you killed it and end up wiping. The parse will show you that, on average the group lacked x amount of Dps, and you can also see who is underperforming, and try to help those person.

On the other hand, you can work on the damages you deal and improve as a bard to maximize your dps output. This has 3 benefits :
- you get better as a player
- you can compensate other's mistakes
- you can skip phases which means faster clears (great for farming) and less stress overall on the players (expecially the healers) and less room for mistakes

[HyoMinPark]

No, of course one thing such as an in-game parser is not enough on its own, even as it gives elitists a means to say "This is in the game now, so you better learn to use it!" Can you say in utmost honesty that no such thing will happen? Some folks already try to lord it over other people, which is presently against the game's Terms of Service, and for good reason. Then there is the all likelihood that the one thing--the in-game parser--is part of a slippery slope that I'm sure other more experienced MMO players can tell you about.

Don’t use slippery slope arguments in your argument.

And pro-parser people try to “lord it over” people who don’t parse? Like, what? I’ve never seen any incident of a person demanding a player start parsing, or start using a parse. While that’s anecdotal, so is your experience, which it seems like that’s what you’re speaking on behalf of.

Things that elite players and wannabe elitists alike both want added or taken away.

Less time and resources given to non-raid content, save for generic collectibles, fetch quests, et cetera, because the already limited size of Team Yoshi is too focused on providing for the one type of player as opposed to the millions of players who enjoyed the game until that point.

This “argument” again? Are you trying to say that Ultimate took away content from 4.1, because it’s already been stated time and time again by people here AND by the development team that Ultimate did not take anything away from the content of 4.1. And, really? Are you really trying to argue that the developers cater to the raiders, because it is the exact opposite. They cater to the “other majority”—the side of the playerbase that prefer “non-Savage” content.

The expansions and patches in the game release piece of content after piece of content for the sides of the community that aren’t Savage raiders: dungeons, 24-mans, casual 8-mans, quests, sidequests, crafting and gathering for those that prefer DoH/DoL, beast tribes, etc., etc.. Every other patch releases a Savage 8-man raid, each one getting progressively easier since Gordias. The developers finally decide to give something to the “1%” of “hardcore” players that asked repeatedly for more, and people start crying about how...what? They didn’t get something, too? I don’t understand this argument at all. This was literally the first time the developers ever gave something to that “1%”, and apparently it was so incredibly offensive to the other “99%” because...what? Eureka didn’t come out? They already said that Eureka being delayed was not due to Ultimate, which, aside from very few things, is mostly reused assets from previously existing fights.

I’m sorry if this wasn’t what you were saying, but I have gotten really tired of hearing people cry over Ultimate when it didn’t affect 4.1 content in any way.

Again, a parse is fine as a tool for self-improvement, but there are people who can and will abuse the parser to the nth degree should we have an in-game parser. There are people already who try with fflogs. Not one person, but several people. Give them an inch/ilm, and they'll take more than a yard/yalm. Once they do, then things will become progressively worse for everyone else.

That's all the more I'm going to say on that.

Just like people abuse the vote kick system. Or the reporting harassment system. Or spam the vote abandon after one wipe to a boss in a 24-man. A jerk is going to be a jerk; parser or no parser. But to insinuate that a parser is the cause for jerk-ish behavior is completely misinformed. Don’t blame the tool just because some dude you will probably never encounter again decided to be a jerk, and used a parser to do it.

I repeat what I asked in another post: where is your evidence (non-anecdotal and non-slippery slope, please) to support your argument? Because, unless you can see into the future, you cannot rightly say “If a parser is built into this game, harassment is going to increase, and people are going to start expecting everyone to parse in every duty”.

As to whether or not I'm performing well, on Bard rotation at this point for example, it comes down to my gear, whether or not the enemy I'm fighting lasts long enough for a rotation--because it can be annoying if I'm about to Barrage + Refulgent Arrow something and it jumps into the air, unable to be targeted until Barrage and Straighter Shot both wear off--and whether or not Straighter Shot even procs because that Refulgent Arrow is a beautiful thing when we can actually use it. I can see the difference, generally, in the health bars of bosses when Refulgent Arrow can or cannot be used, when Pitch Perfect hits the third note often enough, and so on. It is a rather proc-based job, in addition to the resources we provide, but when it works, it devastates and makes quite the difference per phase. No, I don't need the damage meter; that is not a feeling but a fact.

There is so much more to a Bard’s rotation that just Barrage+Refulgent Arrow. Proc-based or not, are you using your songs in the right order (Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s clipped at 10 seconds left to repeat, for single target; Mage’s > Army’s > Minuet clipped at 10 seconds left to repeat, for AOE)? Lining up Raging Strikes with Minuet, and using Barrage only in Raging (because it a loss to use it outside of Raging)? Are you Barraging Empyreal Arrow if RA doesn’t proc during Raging? Are you keeping your DoTs up, and refreshing them every 30 seconds with Iron Jaws? What about your Straight Shot buff? Is it up 100% of the time? Whether or not you were just trying to break down a bard’s rotation to the most simplistic of ways, what you stated still isn’t an accurate representation of the job’s rotation.

As for “telling the difference in the HP bars”, you aren’t taking into consideration the damage of the other players in your party. Without a parser, you won’t know if you’re putting out sufficient damage or not, unless you calculate by hand via the Battle Logs. You can’t go off of a “feeling” or a “difference in the depletion of a mob’s HP”. There’s too much room for error and influence in the latter. I’m sorry, but I don’t find this argument you’ve presented to be decent enough to be used against implementing built-in parsers in content where they matter (Ultimate, Savage, and Ex trials).

Amusing how you say this without evidence or further elaboration. The way you are currently making it sound, a parse simply tells you how to play this game, rather than you figuring it out for yourself. Would you care to build upon this, leaving nothing unclear and without debate as to how it works? Furthermore, would you like to state why it is, exactly, that everyone I've met who uses a parse only seems to do so for the damage meter?

I’m sure you’re probably aware of all the theorycrafters out there (for example, Dervy). Do you know how they come up with their data? Parsers and hours upon hours of Striking Dummy tests. Parsers tell you so much more than just how much damage-per-second you’re putting out. You say you main Bard, then I’m sure you’re aware of some of the top bard players out there (for example, Miyuri). How do you think they perfect their rotations, figure their openers, etc.? Parsers and hours upon hours of Striking Dummy tests. They don’t do it based off of “feelings” or watching the HP of a dummy deplete.

Don’t look at parsers in such a black-and-white point of view. Used correctly, they are an immensely useful tool that can tell you far more than just “Oh, well I did 4506.08 DPS that run; that’s 95th percentile. Sweet!” Couple it with FFlogs and FFlogs’ Replay function, you have an amazing tool for analyzing a wipe to pinpoint where the exact issue is, and work on rectifying it. I did that many times with my old static to try and see what caused us to die on V2S and V3S, and we did our best to learn from it.