Built-in Parsers

[Hitsuzen]

The forums are a tool that people harass each other with. The game itself is a tool people harass each other with. The whole internet is a tool used for harassment. Where is your line drawn in the sand here?

Life isn't so black and white. parsers will be and are currently used to exclude players from high level content. Forum posts are just a way to voice opinions and can't be used to exclude players from portions of the game.

[SDaemon]

I agree with you a little too. But toxic people will remain toxic. Also there are people who claims they have parsers and call people bad. It was this time my friend said a guy is low dps and then he said no, you are...ended up my friend saying the dps numbers and the guy said he lied about it and wanted to report him. You see, people without parsers (in my opinion) can be 2 times more toxic than anyone. Holding people hostage and force people to help them with a clear is toxic. Telling people they have a parser then lie about it just to try bann someone, toxic. Wiping people for hours on ''purpose'' is toxic too. I could keep going on about it. I get it and I know you still stand your ground. But honestly people will stay toxic much as they are now with or without a personal parser. It's stupid how a game like FF14 which is pve heavy doesn't have one in built.

I don't think its really an issue of toxic players now versus after (in the hypothetical event parsers are added). It's about how parsers are added and what features could be added to prevent instances of abuse BEFORE they occur rather than simply reporting it AFTER.

[Dualgunner]

Life isn't so black and white. parsers will be and are currently used to exclude players from high level content. Forum posts are just a way to voice opinions and can't be used to exclude players from portions of the game.

"Life isn't black and white. But parsers will absolutely always be used this way."

Avg. iLv gates people in pf. Preferred jobs gate people in pf. Player level actively gates people off from content. Your line in the sand is where?

[SDaemon]

At least we agree on that aspect, but I still extend the same overall standard to PF. Like I said, I simply can't get behind the idea even a pug should just accept someone performing well below where they should relative to their ilvl just because they reach the DPS check. Frankly, its this mentality that caused Savage to be made easier and easier. Midas, in my opinion, was a solid tier even if I barely got to experience it personal yet people whined over how hard the mechanics and checks were. And therein lies the problem with accepting "just enough." Putting all that aside, PFs are allowed to make whatever stands they want. If you dislike how the leader handles something, you can leave. Some players will be far more tolerant than others carrying other people.

And I agree that PF leaders are allowed to make whatever standards they want. But I simply can't get behind this notion that just because someone is performing better than someone else in the group and that person in question is performing their fair share of the DPS requirements burden that they are at fault in any way or should be kicked.

Though I suppose its that we have differing thoughts on what constitutes someone's fair share of the DPS burden.

[Hitsuzen]

I don't need to draw a line in the sand. I back things I feel are pragmatic. Player based barriers or anything that will cause players to group together and remove another player for performance is bad. If the game does it, then there's not feel bad involved.

[Dualgunner]

The game doesn't gate specific jobs. Its not the game that rejects red mages from my pf, its me by selecting every job for dps but red mage. Its not the game that sets avg iLv minimum in pf, its me by selecting it. Its not the game that stops people who haven't cleared from joining my pf, its me by selecting the relevant option.

[Raven2014]

Before I say something, let's me say that I don't have anything against a parser itself. I had used it in another games, and it's a great personal tool to quickly identify quirk and improve yourself. When someone I run with post a fflog for me to look at, it's a great piece to analyze your performance. But having said that. I also fully understand why the developer refuses to put one in game, because ... to put it bluntly - it can make people really stupid. Let's me share a few story:

- I was once healing a O3S. One of the pull is incredibly messy and we hit the enrage. Except me (the AST) and one of the tank, the rest of the party (all the DPS, the other tank and healer) have all died to mechanic at one point in the fight or another. In the end we miss the killed by 1 or 2%. Do you know what was the first thing said after the wipe? "Hey AST, can you please throw a dot on the boss, we could have clear had your DPS wasn't 100". So, let's me get this straight, let's forget that everyone had been dying left and right, let's forget that despite the other healer and tank kissed the floor we didn't wipe, the only reason we wiped was because of me, the healer who is probably the reason why the party even lasted to that point ... didn't put up a dot, and not all the people who died to mechanic. I'm not an anti-DPS healer, when things goes smoothly I do more then just throw a dot. But this was a fight where I my swiftcast doesn't come back fast enough for raise, that I have to give myself extended ewe just to scrape enough MP to heal and raise ... So why did I got call out? Because my number was at the bottom of the list I bet. One of the DPS said something like: You can't control other people dying but you can control your DPS. To which I reply: you can't control other people DPS, but you can control yourself from dying to mechanic. Petty I know, but like I said, number makes people stupid.

- I play all 3 healers, and despite consider it the most boring out of the 3, I usually go on WHM in pug. Do you know why? It is to spare myself from having a WHM as a healing partner. Again, another time I was healing O3S, this time as a SCH and my partner was a WHM. I think everyone know that out of the 3, Stone IV is the LOUDEST DPS ability, so you always know what the WHM is doing base on the sound of it, and I know the WHM was doing it none-stop, even when he's really supposed to be healing. It's infuriating when you see several people on half heath, the boss is casting spell blade AND you still hearing STONE 4 goes off instead of a heal. People die, we wiped, over and over. Finally I told the WHM that if the party is low, he should heal instead of trying to DPS and left. The WHM came after, whisper me his log, telling me how I should match his number before complaining to him. Couldn't see the number btw, his log was set to private but I don't doubt his point about a #. As someone who play all 3 healers, I know matching a SCH to a WHM number is fool errand, so the fact that this WHM was pinning it against a SCH tell me one and only one thing: all he sees is number, and nothing else. I never care much for HPS as a healer, it's never about how much you heal, but how in time you can heal so people don't die!

- Another story, this is when I was playing a RDM. I was talking to a SAM who used to be in the same static before it got disbanded. I forgot what we were talking about but he end up pulling one of my recent clear that someone else uploaded, and that having 2800DPS is not acceptable because I didn't die, and how I shouldn't try to DPS just because I can and that's disrespectful to the party ...etc... I told him that sure, I didn't die, but did he notice how other people was dying? Who does he think was doing the raise? Did he notice how much healing I was casting on myself so I didn't end up dying? He told me: that's not your job, as a DPS you should only focus on DPS and not doing the healer job for them! I replied: dude, but if I don't do that the party would wipe anway, what is the point of maintaining high number if the fight gonna end in a wipe? As someone who live the pug life I'll do anything for a clear, if I have to cover people mistake and bottom out the DPS table I'll do it, just ... give me the clear for the week. And it should be noted: this is the SAM that will NEVER Lb3 unless you specifically ask for it, usually because you wipe in a previous pull due to no one LB. I had a few run with him after the static break up, and it's often the case if he's the only melee in the group, you will either wipe or finish the fight with a full LB3 bar.


And this is something getting worse, when I learn about the whole FFlog upload and percentile rank, I was not surprise why people acting the way they are. So yes, there is a very good reason why I have never seen an MMO developers put something like this officially in their game or outright endorse it. Remember they gave us the OK to use things like reshade, but never officially ok a parse. Because I bet at the very least they want to have a soft detterent when people misues it and harrash others, then the GM has some ground to take action. I can't even begin to imagine the level of muppetry would ensure if it becomes an official tool.

[Baingoleth]

They won't be putting a parser in the game as has been stated over and over. We're up to 10 pages of people arguing and attacking each other's opinion and no one has convinced anyone to switch to their way of thinking. Just stop and let this thread die.

nowai Adding a personal parser to the built in UI would in no way hurt anyone. It would just allow people to find out what rotations and gear swaps help or hinder their game. I keep hoping SE would see that. If people are able to use ACT to find out the whole party or not is a different ask entirely. So, please SE, add an in-game parser that at least supports looking at personal stats. It could only help players who care to experiment with their gear and rotations get better. I could care less if ACT exists or doesn't. As long as I can parse myself, I'm fine. If I can parse the party too, officially or unofficially, that's a bonus.

What if the parsers were built into the Training Dummies and that's the only place they worked? That a way there's no parsing in dungeons, NO MALICE towards anyone, and you still get the parses to help figure out your best rotation? I dont know if something like that is possible, I'm not tech savvy or anything, but that would be a way to solve it, eh?

As long as tools like ACT can get numbers from the combat logs or the network stream, they'll keep working fine despite adding a parser to the game in any official form.

[Voltyblast]

I had a discussion on another thread, so before I give my two cents I'll post what I initially mentioned in the other thread.

Parsers are avoided and banned to avoid toxicity and abuse...by using toxicity and abuse. Love the irony here for sure!

I'm a supporter for parsers and really it saddens me that people are too blind to notice the benefits and instead see only the downsides, like toxicity and whatnot. Yes, a parser could bring a lot of problems but it could also bring a lot of good and actually separate those who want to improve from those who don't care about playing the game at all.

Truth is: the game is already toxic, and it never the parser's fault to begin with.

Think about it: people legitimately refuse certain jobs into high ending content because "they suck" and the fact that the raids are only for 8 men (when it should be probably higher) causes the game to be heavy in a meta orientated playstyle.
Just like Mobas and competitive fps where only a certain specific type of composition - AND ONLY THAT - is allowed. And yes those games are a toxicity cesspool.

People already demand you to know everything from the get-go and to do optimal DPS on the first try or else is an instant disband (Zurvan's Soar in extreme?). And yes, this is on training groups so imagine on legitimate serious ones!

People don't even help each other at all, even mentors (I am one, but I always hide my crown), and instead prefer to call names and even kick people because they make mistakes, instead of actually helping them improving (I was even kicked once because of "low aggro", despite I didn't even finish the aggro rotation, and I can assure you that my ilvl was above par)

You know what's funny about all of this parser hatred? I hardly ever seen a parser user harassing or name-shaming those for low dps. I mean I use one, on occasions, and did anyone see me harass someone for low dps? I don't think so. Sure I might hint that the boss is taking too long, but I never say that our <insert job> is doing low dps because if I did well, I'd be banned on the spot and probably called harasser despite my good intentions of helping. Friendly behavior not allowed!

Parser is a tool, a harmless tool that on its own it cannot harm, just like a hammer, a screwdriver, a kitchen knife, all tools that are potentially lethal on the wrong hands, and just like in real life people would rather point their fingers on the tool of said disruption rather than to point it on the actual culprit; it's like banning internet because of its harmful possibilities like cyberstalking, trolling, name shaming, doxxing etc, or even banning electricity or metal because "we can create weapons with it".

This is beyond ludicrous: this is medieval kind of close-mindedness, with the exception that we are afraid of a bunch of numbers instead of actual witches.

So let the witch hunt continue I say...afterall while two dogs strive for a bone, the third will run away with it

[Hitsuzen]

Okay, there are benefits to including a parser in-game. That is undeniable, but making the game easier to micromanage user data also makes it less of a game in my opinion. I suppose most people like to flow down the easiest path in general though.