Built-in Parsers

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And lets be real, this thread stopped being productive long before it even existed, since this topic has already been discussed to death, but neither side wants to give a inch

Because like the ever beloved healer DPS, the opposing side lacks a stable argument. You claim parses would make it too easy to blur the lines between "playstyle" and "harassment" yet that doesn't add up.

"What's going on <insert player name>? Your DPS (SAM) is really low."
"Wtf <insert player name>? Fix your shit or I'm kicking you."

Those are two widely different tone. I can and should be reported for the latter, but the former isn't harassment in any way. If said player refuses to improve or admits they don't know their rotation well. I'm not obligated to carry them through content. If you think PF groups don't already kick for poor parses, you haven't pugged Savage. The only difference is they just don't tell you why or they reform the party and invite those they wanted back.

The parse argument basically boils down to "you'll hurt someone's feelings."

[Kacho_Nacho]

Because like the ever beloved healer DPS, the opposing side lacks a stable argument. You claim parses would make it too easy to blur the lines between "playstyle" and "harassment" yet that doesn't add up. "What's going on <insert player name>? Your DPS (SAM) is really low."
"Wtf <insert player name>? Fix your shit or I'm kicking you."

Those are two widely different tone. I can and should be reported for the latter, but the former isn't harassment in any way. If said player refuses to improve or admits they don't know their rotation well. I'm not obligated to carry them through content. If you think PF groups don't already kick for poor parses, you haven't pugged Savage. The only difference is they just don't tell you why or they reform the party and invite those they wanted back.

The parse argument basically boils down to "you'll hurt someone's feelings."

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

FFXIV's community is really no different except people will just omit the numbers. You also have to keep in mind WoW's numbers dwarf FFXIV by a significant amount. You'll here more complaints just based on sheer volume. Per your example though, pointing out said ilvl difference makes the accuser look dumb unless you're underperforming relatively to your ilvl.

Regardless, I would prefer some actual accountability than the passive aggressiveness and constant vote abandons we see now. Once again, people like those you described will kick or disband without a public parse. They simply won't tell you why. Will some abuse parses and/or be hostile? Yes, so report them. In the long run though, allowing parses helps improve players, especially when you can direct compare rotations, buffs and get a much better understanding why your DPS may be low. Right now, it's a guessing game unless you silently run these programs, which a good number of raiders do.

[Oscura]

Regardless, I would prefer some actual accountability than the passive aggressiveness and constant vote abandons we see now.

This is actually a really solid sentence by itself. I didn't even fully realize how often both of these things happen until you worded it that way.

[Dualgunner]

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

I think I'm missing something from your post.

WoW is a game that embraces the use of parsers. So wouldn't a lot of players coming from WoW be okay with use of parsers? Wouldn't they have naturally brought such a community vibe with them?

If you're claiming they came here to get away from the parsing nature of WoW...got any evidence for that? I only have anecdotes myself but a lot of my friends from WoW hate this game's policy on parsing, and left WoW for XIV because they hated the way gear was treated (something about an accessory that has an rng loot drop chance, but can account for 10+% of your dps, I'm not too clear on the details having never played WoW myself).

[NintenPyjak64]

If you're claiming they came here to get away from the parsing nature of WoW...got any evidence for that? I only have anecdotes myself but a lot of my friends from WoW hate this game's policy on parsing, and left WoW for XIV because they hated the way gear was treated (something about an accessory that has an rng loot drop chance, but can account for 10+% of your dps, I'm not too clear on the details having never played WoW myself).

WoW has 2 extra accessory slots called Trinkets. What they're complaining about is that some trinkets became so powerful for a specific class that they literally change your rotation to revolve around said trinket

At the end of Warlords of Draenor, I've heard about a caster trinket that made Arcane Mage just sit around and do next to nothing until it procs, and when it does, they went balls deep and still manage to top DPS (I played Hunter during that time, even then I was changing around trinkets on a per fight basis)

[Taika]

WoW has 2 extra accessory slots called Trinkets. What they're complaining about is that some trinkets became so powerful for a specific class that they literally change your rotation to revolve around said trinket

How does that have anything to do with parsers though? Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

I think the point was without parsers the players wouldn't have been aware they could be lazy and still perform well the rankings so wouldn't have changed their play style.

Sure, but in this case I'd read it as the parser helping to reveal a severe lack in gear balance.

[Zojha]

How does that have anything to do with parsers though?

Nothing and nobody claimed it did either.

Person B claimed that many people left WoW because of Parsing. Person A then tried to refute Person B's statement by stating that the people Person A knows did not leave over parsing, the opposite in fact, they like parsing, and instead left WoW for different reasons - namely item design.
Since Person A admitted to not knowing the details of the item design their friends supposedly complained about, Person C, the one you quoted, kindly elaborated on them to give Person A a better understanding of the underlying complaints of their friends. That has nothing to do with parsing, it is a supporting remark that has no bearing on the topic of the thread.

Similarly, my post does not have anything to do with parsing and merely attempts to fix your poor reading comprehension. I suggest getting back to the topic of the thread at the earliest convenience.

[Kacho_Nacho]

How does that have anything to do with parsers though? Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

She was answering an off-topic question by Dualgunner.

WoW is a game that embraces the use of parsers. So wouldn't a lot of players coming from WoW be okay with use of parsers? Wouldn't they have naturally brought such a community vibe with them?

Unfortunately, I have nothing but anecdotal evidence. You know, things former WoW players have told me. To make things a bit clearer, most people I've talked to are not hardcore raiders.

Raiders have different reasons for leaving than casuals. Casual players have told me they left WoW because of the bad community. They have blamed both the cross-server party finder and the misuse of Recount for ruining the community.

Raiders tell me they left because of bad class balance, mandatory gear, and a loot system which makes it pure luck to get the needed gear.

The only thing relevant to this discussion is the belief parsers turn good gaming communities into bad gaming communities. Since I am not an employee of Blizzard, I do not have access to the data needed to support this claim. All I have is my eight years of experience with the game, and based upon that experience, I have concluded parsers, and their frequent misuse, hurt the game more than they improve it.

[Claviusnex]

How does that have anything to do with parsers though? Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

I think the point was without parsers the players wouldn't have been aware they could be lazy and still perform well the rankings so wouldn't have changed their play style.

Having played WoW I think parsers caused just as much trouble as they helped. In static raid groups or as an individual they helped but the ability to display the results in chat frequently ended up more as griefing than help in PUGs. I also saw people I knew to be good players kicked just because they had a bad fight for whatever reason. I'd have no problem with a built in parser if it was only for the individual and the only way to see an aggregate for the player base would be on external websites that do rankings voluntarily.