Built-in Parsers

[Taika]

As of now, if someone says to someone in my party "You're performing really badly!" I can jump in and say "AND HOW EXACTLY WOULD YOU KNOW THAT? are you using a parser, by any chance?"

And then the person says "I'm checking "the enmity meter", your ability use and the damage log" and everyone knows what they're talking about. What you're advocating is people bullying others with a threat of reporting to force them to hide the objective facts about underperformers. Again, no one should be harassed or bullied, over their DPS or HPS or anything else in this game, that should always be reported and otherwise dealt with. But you can't force people to carry others who aren't willing or able to meet the content or party requirements. That's not fair either.

[AlexionSkylark]

What you're advocating is people bullying others with a threat of reporting to force them to hide the objective facts about underperformers.

Wait, are you really trying to turn this around and say that I'm harassing the person by taking away his right of harassing others over their performance?

[Kacho_Nacho]

Oh lord this topic again.

In-game parsers wouldn't change a damn thing, bads would still continue to be bad and not give a damn.

Just let it go.

Your post is a great example of the Casuals versus the Hardcores conflict I referred to in an earlier post. You call them bads; but, the reality is many of those players have different goals than you. They aren't playing the game competitively. They are just playing a game.

Now, that doesn't mean you are wrong for playing the way you play. It just means you are looking at the situation in the wrong way. If you randomly group with players you should realize all of your group may not be looking at the game the same way you are. I feel the best solution is to form parties with like minded people, much like the original post suggested with its parser options.

Shine on!

[Niwashi]

Right now you can say "You're performing really badly!" and that's not considered harassment. Then you could say "You're performing really badly: your DPS is only 2500 when it should be 4000!". And again, if you add any personal insults or bad language to those, they'll turn into harassment, despite if numbers have been used or not. The main difference in my eyes is that when the numbers are used, the person receiving the critisism will know if it's based on facts or not.

Actually, telling someone they're performing badly can in many cases be harassment now. But that aside...

With a personal parser, they'd be getting those numbers. The difference is that you're not satisfied with the game providing them their numbers. You want to take command and be the one giving out your teammates' numbers yourself. That's where it turns into pure selfishness, the part where you are the one to tell them their numbers, or even that you feel you should even know their numbers.

The ones who can actually do something about their numbers ins't you. It's them. So they're the one who should get them. Controlling someone else's game is NOT your job. Your job is to take care of your own character, and see that you are performing well enough. It's up to your teammates to take care of theirs, and their performance.

With a strictly personal parser, you get your numbers and can work on improving your game. Your teammates each get their numbers and can work on improving their game. In a static you can coordinate this and work on your team dynamics to improve how you work together. But nobody gets to take over and appropriate other people's gameplay as their own.

[Taika]

Wait, are you really trying to turn this around and say that I'm harassing the person by taking away his right of harassing others over their performance?

No I'm not. Like I've said a billion times, harassment should never be allowed, for numbers, performance, anything. But pointing out someone is doing significantly less than they should be, or messing up every mechanic in a fight they have said they know, is not harassment. But threatening to report someone and try to get them banned just because they're pointing out someone isn't meeting the content's expectations sure is.

[AlexionSkylark]

No I'm not. Like I've said a billion times, harassment should never be allowed, for numbers, performance, anything. But pointing out someone is doing significantly less than they should be, or messing up every mechanic in a fight they have said they know, is not harassment. But threatening to report someone and try to get them banned just because they're pointing out someone isn't meeting the content's expectations sure is.

Just let us put this into context. Are you dealing with matchmaking content? (Roulettes, Raid Finder, and PuGs in general)? or a PF group? If on a PF, did you state clearly in recruitment the kind of level of ability and knowledge of the fight you're expecting? Or are we talking about a static?
We really need some context here, because each of those situations should handle that conundrum differently.

[Taika]

Just let us put this into context. Are you dealing with matchmaking content? (Roulettes, Raid Finder, and PuGs in general)? or a PF group? If on a PF, did you state clearly in recruitment the kind of level of ability and knowledge of the fight you're expecting? Or are we talking about a static?
We really need some context here, because each of those situations should handle that conundrum differently.

I'm talking about PF group where the requirements are clearly set by the content (enrage or other DPS check) and / or party leader ("must bring good enough DPS to beat enrage") for content where those things matter (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). I've clearly specified this in my previous posts too, that this should be the content where the official parser is even added (as an optional feature for premade groups).

With a personal parser, they'd be getting those numbers. The difference is that you're not satisfied with the game providing them their numbers. You want to take command and be the one giving out your teammates' numbers yourself. That's where it turns into pure selfishness, the part where you are the one to tell them their numbers, or even that you feel you should even know their numbers.

We're not talking about solo content, but group content, where each individual's performance has a direct and major influence on the whole team's performance, to the point of the team being unable to clear content because of one individual member. Because of this, everyone in the team should know each other's numbers. And once again, only in the content where this is the case: Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. And as an optional feature for premade groups.

Again, I think I'm probably argued against by people whom this suggestion wouldn't even concern in any way, since they're not even doing this content in the first place. So why not let those people who do the content and need this and want this to have the option of using it?

[HyoMinPark]

Just let us put this into context. Are you dealing with matchmaking content? (Roulettes, Raid Finder, and PuGs in general)? or a PF group? If on a PF, did you state clearly in recruitment the kind of level of ability and knowledge of the fight you're expecting? Or are we talking about a static?
We really need some context here, because each of those situations should handle that conundrum differently.

Taika is talking about using parsers in content where they actually matter: Savage, Ex primals, and now Ultimate. There's no need to use parsers in 4-man content or even 24-man content, and I see far more people harass others without parsers than with them. Heck, I was accused of buying my Savage clears because I lagged out in Ala Mhigo and died to a mechanic. There was absolutely nothing mentioned about my damage--just the fact that I died. I see harassment like that far more frequently than someone saying "Your numbers are trash; please uninstall."

If people aren't doing content that actually call for parsers, or where a parser would be useful, why should they care if people doing said content use it?

Also, threatening to report people that one suspects may be parsing is just as dickish of a move as someone using a parser to harass. Which, again, does not happen nearly as often as a lot of people claim.

[Niwashi]

But pointing out someone is doing significantly less than they should be, or messing up every mechanic in a fight they have said they know, is not harassment.

Parsers aren't going to tell you about who is messing up mechanics, anyway. You have to watch their actions to see that part. So even though it's generally far more important to how well people are performing, it's still a bit off-topic in this discussion.

As to someone doing less than they should be (as in simply getting lower numbers), the issue is who decides what they *should* be getting. That's where the biggest difference between the so-called casuals and so-called hardcores lies, in what sort of numbers they consider good. Hardcore players tend to want the best possible numbers, and will frequently berate anyone with lower numbers than themselves (regardless of whether the content actually requires those numbers or not), whereas casuals generally just want enough to get through the run. If you're telling someone they're doing less than they should, you're imposing your own view on what they "should" be doing. Maybe their standards are just lower.

By keeping each player's numbers to themselves, a personal parser allows each to decide where they want their numbers to be and optimize their play to their own goals. Certainly, everyone's goals are going to include completing the content, so high enough to meet any DPS checks would be a goal you'd have in common. But beyond that, goals vary too widely.

[Taika]

As to someone doing less than they should be (as in simply getting lower numbers), the issue is who decides what they *should* be getting.

That's not an issue at all. It is known (thanks to parsers!) how much party DPS is required for each fight to beat the enrage. It is also well known (again, thanks to parsers!) what is the average DPS number for each job in each fight. So it's quite easy to take the required group DPS and then divide it between party members in a reasonable manner (so one isn't asked to be in top 10% of their job while the other is asked to be in the bottom 10%, for example). Again, I'm talking about content with DPS checks, where the game itself sets certain numbers everyone has to meet for the team to be able to win.

Then there's another chance that the group will set their own requirements. In this case they're either checking logs beforehand and or asking for certain DPS number from the people who wish to join. There already are tons of groups like this and people are free to start them or join them or not to join them as they want. These groups too are already happening, so having an official parter wouldn't change that in any way.