Built-in Parsers

[Taika]

As of now, if someone says to someone in my party "You're performing really badly!" I can jump in and say "AND HOW EXACTLY WOULD YOU KNOW THAT? are you using a parser, by any chance?"

And then the person says "I'm checking "the enmity meter", your ability use and the damage log" and everyone knows what they're talking about. What you're advocating is people bullying others with a threat of reporting to force them to hide the objective facts about underperformers. Again, no one should be harassed or bullied, over their DPS or HPS or anything else in this game, that should always be reported and otherwise dealt with. But you can't force people to carry others who aren't willing or able to meet the content or party requirements. That's not fair either.

[AlexionSkylark]

What you're advocating is people bullying others with a threat of reporting to force them to hide the objective facts about underperformers.

Wait, are you really trying to turn this around and say that I'm harassing the person by taking away his right of harassing others over their performance?

[Taika]

Wait, are you really trying to turn this around and say that I'm harassing the person by taking away his right of harassing others over their performance?

No I'm not. Like I've said a billion times, harassment should never be allowed, for numbers, performance, anything. But pointing out someone is doing significantly less than they should be, or messing up every mechanic in a fight they have said they know, is not harassment. But threatening to report someone and try to get them banned just because they're pointing out someone isn't meeting the content's expectations sure is.

[AlexionSkylark]

No I'm not. Like I've said a billion times, harassment should never be allowed, for numbers, performance, anything. But pointing out someone is doing significantly less than they should be, or messing up every mechanic in a fight they have said they know, is not harassment. But threatening to report someone and try to get them banned just because they're pointing out someone isn't meeting the content's expectations sure is.

Just let us put this into context. Are you dealing with matchmaking content? (Roulettes, Raid Finder, and PuGs in general)? or a PF group? If on a PF, did you state clearly in recruitment the kind of level of ability and knowledge of the fight you're expecting? Or are we talking about a static?
We really need some context here, because each of those situations should handle that conundrum differently.

[Taika]

Just let us put this into context. Are you dealing with matchmaking content? (Roulettes, Raid Finder, and PuGs in general)? or a PF group? If on a PF, did you state clearly in recruitment the kind of level of ability and knowledge of the fight you're expecting? Or are we talking about a static?
We really need some context here, because each of those situations should handle that conundrum differently.

I'm talking about PF group where the requirements are clearly set by the content (enrage or other DPS check) and / or party leader ("must bring good enough DPS to beat enrage") for content where those things matter (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). I've clearly specified this in my previous posts too, that this should be the content where the official parser is even added (as an optional feature for premade groups).

With a personal parser, they'd be getting those numbers. The difference is that you're not satisfied with the game providing them their numbers. You want to take command and be the one giving out your teammates' numbers yourself. That's where it turns into pure selfishness, the part where you are the one to tell them their numbers, or even that you feel you should even know their numbers.

We're not talking about solo content, but group content, where each individual's performance has a direct and major influence on the whole team's performance, to the point of the team being unable to clear content because of one individual member. Because of this, everyone in the team should know each other's numbers. And once again, only in the content where this is the case: Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. And as an optional feature for premade groups.

Again, I think I'm probably argued against by people whom this suggestion wouldn't even concern in any way, since they're not even doing this content in the first place. So why not let those people who do the content and need this and want this to have the option of using it?

[Niwashi]

I'm talking about PF group where the requirements are clearly set by the content (enrage or other DPS check) and / or party leader ("must bring good enough DPS to beat enrage") for content where those things matter (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). I've clearly specified this in my previous posts too, that this should be the content where the official parser is even added (as an optional feature for premade groups).

Ok, I may have missed a bit of the discussion trying to catch up on this as well as a number of other things. So long as the feature is limited to only being available in those situations, while both it and the combat log details that allow third party programs are disabled in all other content, I wouldn't mind so much about a parser being party-wide.

But even there it's not necessary. You can just as well discuss with your party members why an attempt failed. In fact, that will generally do better for you than simply having the parser give out everyone's numbers, because although low DPS can cause a wipe, it's far from being the only problem that can. The combination of personal parsers and a group willing to talk to each other gives you everything a party-wide parser would.

And given that I do think we need the personal parser regardless, and available much sooner, in all dungeons/trials, I think that's what SE should focus on. Provide us the part that's useful everywhere. Remove the part that leads to both inequality of access and to harassment. Then in the specific cases where more info would be helpful, it's content where you should be communicating with your team anyway.

[Taika]

But even there it's not necessary. You can just as well discuss with your party members why an attempt failed. In fact, that will generally do better for you than simply having the parser give out everyone's numbers, because although low DPS can cause a wipe, it's far from being the only problem that can. The combination of personal parsers and a group willing to talk to each other gives you everything a party-wide parser would.

Imagine a situation: a group will keep wiping to enrage despite all members having capped item level gear, no one is failing mechanics and dying, and everyone seems to be doing their correct rotation. The issue is clearly DPS, so party leader asks everyone to call out their personal parser numbers. Everyone is calling numbers high enough that the party should clear the fight without an issue. Of course the real problem is, one or more people are lying. They can be lying because they know their performance is far from decent, or they can be lying because their performance is just a tiny bit under what it should be (while someone else is doing significantly worse). Same with healing: one healer calls a high HPS number, the other one calls one really close to it. Both of them are lying, but no one will know. People who are currently using the dont ask dont tell policy to blame others for their shortcomings could keep doing just that (I have seen people getting kicked for "low DPS" while people doing the kicking were in fact doing much worse, and no one could defend them because they'd risk getting reported and banned).

A group parser would do absolutely no harm, but it would add transparency, and as such, fairness.

Obviously, a group should talk about performance, and parse numbers aren't the only thing that matter: they need to be put in context. But what's a better start for good party discussion about strategies to reach the common goal than knowing where the party is currently standing? Why would there be a need to hide that knowledge? In all likelihood people would just get asked to take screenshots of their logs for others to view or something ridiculous as that (or people would just keep using 3rd party group parsers to see if people are telling the truth about their personal numbers)...

[HyoMinPark]

Just let us put this into context. Are you dealing with matchmaking content? (Roulettes, Raid Finder, and PuGs in general)? or a PF group? If on a PF, did you state clearly in recruitment the kind of level of ability and knowledge of the fight you're expecting? Or are we talking about a static?
We really need some context here, because each of those situations should handle that conundrum differently.

Taika is talking about using parsers in content where they actually matter: Savage, Ex primals, and now Ultimate. There's no need to use parsers in 4-man content or even 24-man content, and I see far more people harass others without parsers than with them. Heck, I was accused of buying my Savage clears because I lagged out in Ala Mhigo and died to a mechanic. There was absolutely nothing mentioned about my damage--just the fact that I died. I see harassment like that far more frequently than someone saying "Your numbers are trash; please uninstall."

If people aren't doing content that actually call for parsers, or where a parser would be useful, why should they care if people doing said content use it?

Also, threatening to report people that one suspects may be parsing is just as dickish of a move as someone using a parser to harass. Which, again, does not happen nearly as often as a lot of people claim.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Taika is talking about using parsers in content where they actually matter: Savage, Ex primals, and now Ultimate. There's no need to use parsers in 4-man content or even 24-man content, and I see far more people harass others without parsers than with them. Heck, I was accused of buying my Savage clears because I lagged out in Ala Mhigo and died to a mechanic. There was absolutely nothing mentioned about my damage--just the fact that I died. I see harassment like that far more frequently than someone saying "Your numbers are trash; please uninstall."

I just want to emphasise this by adding the sheer number of people I've seen in 24 man raids whining about low DPS when they're being out-dps'd by healers is baffling. They clearly aren't running a parse otherwise they wouldn't be speaking up like that. Perhaps the worst example I've seen was a Scholar in Ravana Normal who kept complaining about low DPS when we pulled without a second tank (they DC'd). This person not only forget to summon their Faerie, but was wearing level 40-45 gear, the friendship Circuit and Brand New Ring. When I called them out, his defense was "I have a level 60 Paladin. I know what I'm doing!!"

[Niwashi]

But pointing out someone is doing significantly less than they should be, or messing up every mechanic in a fight they have said they know, is not harassment.

Parsers aren't going to tell you about who is messing up mechanics, anyway. You have to watch their actions to see that part. So even though it's generally far more important to how well people are performing, it's still a bit off-topic in this discussion.

As to someone doing less than they should be (as in simply getting lower numbers), the issue is who decides what they *should* be getting. That's where the biggest difference between the so-called casuals and so-called hardcores lies, in what sort of numbers they consider good. Hardcore players tend to want the best possible numbers, and will frequently berate anyone with lower numbers than themselves (regardless of whether the content actually requires those numbers or not), whereas casuals generally just want enough to get through the run. If you're telling someone they're doing less than they should, you're imposing your own view on what they "should" be doing. Maybe their standards are just lower.

By keeping each player's numbers to themselves, a personal parser allows each to decide where they want their numbers to be and optimize their play to their own goals. Certainly, everyone's goals are going to include completing the content, so high enough to meet any DPS checks would be a goal you'd have in common. But beyond that, goals vary too widely.