Built-in Parsers

[BillyKaplan]

If people really want parsers for self improvement, I wonder why not more people have suggested personal parsers. You'll see how much damage and heals you're doing, just no one else. This being an MMO and a community, it won't be long before people know not only how they are performing, but other people's numbers as well. However, it will be done in a situation where no one can use it as a weapon against you because no one knows your numbers unless you tell them. And that can easily lead to situations where people see their numbers are low and seek guidance, instead of feeling uneasy whenever someone goes 'you want a tip?' or any other polite alternative. You're still being called out for under-performance, if not outright harassed for it.

Any other parse that lets you see other people's numbers will be usable as a weapon and lead to harassment, and if it's built-in we'll have to put up with the harassing crowds who currently don't do it because it's against the ToS who'll be allowed to roam free. I agree that if you see harassment happening you should report it, but knowing how toxic people get with this already, I can't blame the devs for preferring to leave it out altogether.

[kikix12]

If people really want parsers for self improvement, I wonder why not more people have suggested personal parsers.

You, and the person before you, haven't read a thing past the word "parser", either.

First, you. Personal parsers are no solution because knowing that you have it, people in the party will tell you to post your numbers and, if they will have a reason to believe you are lying, will want you to make some proof, like upload a screenshot somewhere. I know, this is ridiculous as that would take more time than finishing the dungeon with not-as-efficient DPS would...but hey. People are ridiculous at times.

Second, THERE WILL BE NO NUMBERS SHOWN TO ANYONE UNLESS YOU CHOSE TO DO SO!!!

I AM SUGGESTING AN OPTION THAT WILL BE ENTIRELY BINDING FOR THE ENTIRE RUN!!!

Is THIS clear enough! You turn parsers off, you WILL NEVER be in a party where ANYONE will have any numbers visible at all. You turn them on, you will ONLY be paired with people that have parsers on, so everyone will see them. Second option will make person with parsers on LOSE THEM for the sake of faster queue, if that's what they prefer.

SO STOP TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE KICKING OVER NUMBERS. Nothing will force you to use the parser (thus letting others use theirs) if you don't want to risk getting kicked.

[BillyKaplan]

You, and the person before you, haven't read a thing past the word "parser", either.

I think ultimately it doesn't matter because you just explained yourself why most of these options won't work, anyway. And yeah I thought about the 'forcing people to show their numbers' bit later. But they can go around that by declaring such thing to be considered harassment and call it a day. Not that it stopped anyone ever because even on these forums, rude messages are regarded as 'harsh, but just'; people just won't see the difference and things will go on as they are.

You turn parsers off, you WILL NEVER be in a party where ANYONE will have any numbers visible at all. You turn them on, you will ONLY be paired with people that have parsers on, so everyone will see them. Second option will make person with parsers on LOSE THEM for the sake of faster queue, if that's what they prefer.

I get that you're offering this to get around the difficulty discussed prior, but ultimately in the content that really matters, people will really want their parsers, and while it is their choice, you're reducing the amount of people you can team up with for endgame content. And that's also the content you'll queue for pre-made, so queue times won't matter.
As for the faster queue, no dps ever will use a parser at all in real queueable content, and that will kind of miss the mark, wouldn't you say? Other than that, any option that fragments queues is horrible, awful, and likely will not see implementation for this reason alone if no others.

Bottom line is, we don't have any parsers in the game because no matter how you spin and twist it, people will find some way to use it against other players.

[kikix12]

But they can go around that by declaring such thing to be considered harassment and call it a day.

They'll be kicked for "gameplay difference", so it's not going around anything. Personal parsers won't work. No way they can work. They are there, you're going to be forced to use them or get kicked (well, sometimes, since there are still people that don't care).

I get that you're offering this to get around the difficulty discussed prior, but ultimately in the content that really matters, people will really want their parsers, and while it is their choice, you're reducing the amount of people you can team up with for endgame content. And that's also the content you'll queue for pre-made, so queue times won't matter.

In pre-made parties, people already severely reduce the amount of people they can team up with. So what's the difference?! And if someone will want the parser no matter what, I'd believe they STILL use ACT and similar. And they still would not be able to say anything about it if the party officially have no parsers. So worst case scenario...it's the same as is now for some content while it'd help in some other content for some people.

As for the faster queue, no dps ever will use a parser at all in real queueable content, and that will kind of miss the mark, wouldn't you say? Other than that, any option that fragments queues is horrible, awful, and likely will not see implementation for this reason alone if no others.

Of course DPS will use queues. And there are already options that fragment queues, like the language. The problem with queue is not the lack of people to play it. It's the absurd amount of DPS compared to tanks and healers.

Also, people still "segregate" the queue, instead they do it after it pops. If someone does not want to go with under-performers, they will "disconnect" themselves, initiate kicks and what not (possibly blindly), annoy others to get kicked or just outright leave and take the penalty. Just this weak, I had a party where half of the people just up and left the duty several seconds after it begun, for whatever reason. No one could even manage to really do anything before it happened.

[BillyKaplan]

They'll be kicked for "gameplay difference", so it's not going around anything

Which is its own can of worms but that's neither here nor there.

In pre-made parties, people already severely reduce the amount of people they can team up with. So what's the difference?!

You misunderstood me, it is those very pre-mades I'm talking about that will be limited. While I'm aware most hardcore raiders already parse, I can't believe they all parse all the time. And it is that group you will be fragmenting because you'll be forcing one or the other to abide by the other's philosophy. That is to say, a non-parsing capable raider can no longer team up with the parsing raider who wouldn't have said anything because the non-parser is good enough for them. Because it's all or nothing now.

Of course DPS will use queues. And there are already options that fragment queues, like the language.

You compare choosing to use a game utility to the language you were born into. Ok. Wow.

The problem with queue is not the lack of people to play it. It's the absurd amount of DPS compared to tanks and healers.

Which is why anything that will make the queues longer is bad, very bad, teribad, because we really don't need to make things worse.

Also, people still "segregate" the queue, instead they do it after it pops.

Being inside a duty and being outside a duty are completely different situations. If you're already inside, people in your fc or linkshells will be a lot more inclined to join in progress, because if you're 'underperforming', that quitter had to have been there for a while to see that, right? Also you'll know if you have bonus or not and can use that to lure people in as well. I strongly disagree with people comparing people dropping queue before and after it popped because the situations are very different. That's part of what we have the roulettes for, and absolutely why we have the 'join in progress' for. I've seen dead parties where it was only the one first timer left get filled within a minute or two and we cleared the content. So as I like to say before, thank you for making my queue pop, enjoy your penalty, I'm running my content.

[Bobs]

This is exactly why I don't do "end game content," in this game.

If you want/need to be ranked play a MOBA or a FPS.

[Lazaruz]

SO STOP TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE KICKING OVER NUMBERS. Nothing will force you to use the parser (thus letting others use theirs) if you don't want to risk getting kicked.

Not to imply I was ever on your side to begin with, but this is a prime example of where you loose me on your train of thought, as you're blatantly overlooking the ammount of people in PF that would require a parser for endgame content. You're overlooking the fact that your "suggestion" for a built in tool would drasticly and irreparably divide the community into "parser" and "Non-parser", and once a developer goes hands off with allowing people to parse or not, there is a proven trackrecord out there that it will rapidly become a problem as it becomes expected within the playerbase to have it running, especially since there's no way of proving, for instance how many would actually be using it in FF14 if it wasnt because they fear they'll step outof line and get banned (a argument that goes out the window once there's a official parser tool)

But you're correct. No one is being "forced" to enable a parser under your suggestion for a built in tool. They just need to or eventually it will be next to impossible to get a competent group up and running (think DF queues for outdated Alliance raids prior to the roulette in 4.1)

And if you're getting mad over people "not listening to you" imagine how it feels being on the other side when the "pro parsers" time and time again fail to adress the very real concerns surrounding the implementation of official measuring tools, or atleast SE dropping the charade and going full hands off.

I've seen it myself during my time with other MMO's how hostile the community rapidly becomes once it becomes "expected" to parse your numbers, and I know for a fact that I will see it again if Square decides to fully stop caring if people use it in FF14

[kikix12]

And if you're getting mad over people "not listening to you" imagine how it feels being on the other side when the "pro parsers" time and time again fail to adress the very real concerns surrounding the implementation of official measuring tools, or atleast SE dropping the charade and going full hands off.

I'm not getting mad over people not listening to me. I'm perfectly fine with constructive criticism, discussion etc. What I'm not fine is the concept of "I suggest an option to remove X for the player on the client side" only to hear "I'm against, cause I still want to see X" (this is not about parsers, but an example).

Also, I made a suggestion in an attempt to address the very negative aspects of built-in parser. Is it "fool-proof" and "flawless"?! No. I never said otherwise. Quite the opposite. I posted it on the forums in hope of getting constructive responses from different points of view. And I agree with them or give arguments why I disagree with them. I neither said "parsers in game, nuff said" nor "you're wrong cause I think you're wrong". But denying there being a possibility of parsers in-game that would mitigate the negative parts innate, while still not having a unique negative impact exceeding the gain is just naive.

On a different note, removal of the built-in parser if things go west is an option. It is always an option. It is reversible. People would just go back to current parsers full-time after complaining some about the "casuals" and "unskilled players". Something that happens everyday about other topics anyway.


Heck. Training grounds instances that can be soloed or partied in, meant to train, would be one middle-ground. Since they wouldn't even necessarily offer real challenge or rewards, just be more faithful to the dungeon situation than a non-mobile, non-aggressive dummy, there would be no issue with segregation for actual duties or a players excuse for grieving underperformers. But you know, "try with the big things, then get to the details" is how it should be done. In countries where negotiating the price is an upheld tradition, shops specifically show high initial prices, so have that leeway for negotiations. But blank "no" or "people will harass others over numbers" is not leaving any option.

You compare choosing to use a game utility to the language you were born into. Ok. Wow.

Except, people don't even answer to a simple "Hi." or "Hello." regularly. And the language options have nothing to do with the game. They only describe with which language you are fine seeing in the party IF someone will decide to talk. And then there is the translation feature for the basic terms that can be used, even if you don't know the other languages that you queue with. I know few people that have all four of them active while they do not know all four languages. So your argument is moot.