Core Issues With 4.x Dark Knight

[Zegreiart]

If all class got the same damn skill, the game will be boring, so it's natural to be different. Sadly, the actual situation of Drk is not that they're different, they're in a gap that cannot be compensated, no matter how hard you try.

OK, tank need some mechanics completely different from other class tank, but at least... Make it all balanced.

Little word for Square Enix : sometimes, the simplest change can make the balance between classes back.

Like what? I suggested a few suggestions that are wholly different from PLD/WAR and actually work like a DRK would with the XIV spin that they use their MP instead of HP. Stronger MP restoration as well as MP over time, better manipulation of the Bloodgauge, and getting off the need for 'utility', when DRKs have never been known for that.

Their entire playstyle is all about themselves and the raw, devastating damage they can deal. Or, in XIV's case, using it to shore up their defenses. Neither PLD nor WAR does this. Unless Sole Survivor was a massive debuff on everything in combat that drained health/MP from enemies and restored it to party members with a DA effect to drastically make it stronger (from, say 1% to 3% HP & MP/server tick), you'd want so many ticks out of it for it to eventually be MP neutral to MP positive. Drop the CD to 60s. Since we're so CD starved. And when we're out, we're incredibly vulnerable. This is where burning our MP for defense would really make that shine with abilities that aren't really tank skills, but can get the job done, see Abyssal Drain. I would have liked to have seen a Bloodgauge move that worked defensively. It'd make Dark Arts more than just something you mindlessly hit for deeps.

They could even make being in/out of Grit unique in this manner since they don't have a secondary stance like WAR or PLD. Cull some useless abilities/roll them into one another like Blood Price/Blood Weapon so that you only see the one depending on your stance or lack thereof.

I'd like to see Shadowskin return in the form of some kind of Drain Spikes to compliment what Blood Price does, except for HP. Using my idea of Dark Passengers Soul Consumption, that'd make for some interesting AoE capabilities since AD is pretty weak sauce unless you're 5+ targets.

We have a strong framework of skills that just need to be pushed a little harder. The MP to offense/defense just isn't there. When we unleash (no, not the skill), we tear something a new one. Twelve help whatever it is if it's a boss. We don't have to be gods at everything. I'm fine with a minor adjustment to our AoE, but absolutely not with bosses. We need more.

Dark Mind is a good candidate for what could be changed. Magic Damage was heavy in Alexander, only to cater to the new tank job. Now it's kind of underwhelming and way too niche. You won't know that you needed it until you've experienced the fight and know that it's magical damage. It needs to do something else. Refresh/Regen effect, enhance another ability, whatever. In my perfect world of DRKs, Dark Mind would be the ultimate form of Dark Arts. You give into your Dark Mind, and fully succumb to your Darkside. 50 additional potency to all your attacks for 15 seconds. on a 120s CD. Remove the need for DA. Can only be executed after you've used Dark Passenger. If the attack would increase enmity, add a .5 multiplier to its threat generation.

Souleater combo:
Syphon Strike should have it's DA effect baseline.
Souleater should heal for for at least 2.5x's the damage dealt under DA. Souleater should be our answer for for sustain.

Power Slash combo:
Hard Slash potency should be 280 baseline.
Power Slash potency should be 320 baseline with a DA effect of massively increased enmity and a potency of 360.

Bloodspiller looks like it's 110 potency different between being in Grit and outside of it. If this is true, that looks like a 1.2% damage difference. This move should be what brings home the bread. It should also heal given the gauge cost. It needs to be more than damage. If Quietus is our MP restore for AoE, Bloodspiller should be a stronger Souleater at a heavy cost of not only our Bloodgauge but DA as well.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

I suggested a few suggestions

You're not the only one, and this is not the thread for that, make an other subject.

[Zegreiart]

You're not the only one, and this is not the thread for that, make an other subject.

Except that it has been with the discussion of the core mechanics of the job. Please, tell me what the point of this thread is to you. You've come in, complained, and offered nothing in terms of contribution. You echo the obvious. Well done.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Except that it has been with the discussion of the core mechanics of the job. Please, tell me what the point of this thread is to you. You've come in, complained, and offered nothing in terms of contribution. You echo the obvious. Well done.

I've read for a hundred time this discussion, still don't see "suggestions" but only a package of what is wrong on the DRK. Now you know why I don't make proposition here. It's the problem of the Drk that we discuss here, not like 90% discutions with suggestions.

And you should rethink your suggestions. Cause if this is applied then DRK don't need heal anymore. So don't make suggestions if you don't calculate every single values (and here's the things, Soul eater under DA = 2,5x damage to hp. Sweet a 25k heal on soul eater critical....), this debate between us is close.

[Zegreiart]

I've read for a hundred time this discussion, still don't see "suggestions" but only a package of what is wrong on the DRK. Now you know why I don't make proposition here. It's the problem of the Drk that we discuss here, not like 90% discutions with suggestions.

And you should rethink your suggestions. Cause if this is applied then DRK don't need heal anymore. So don't make suggestions if you don't calculate every single values (and here's the things, Soul eater under DA = 2,5x damage to hp. Sweet a 25k heal on soul eater critical....), this debate between us is close.

English must not be your mother tongue. My ideas are not set in any for of mathematical stone. They're ideas. Where are links to your suggestions? I'm genuinely curious now what you'd like to see done since you must have 'calculate every single values'. And your math is wrong, because under no circumstances would a 'eater heal for 25k HP. Please, provide proof of your math and claims before criticizing mine.

Dark Arts and the combo increases Souleater's potency to 400. Let's goof around with a level 60 training dummy. My normal SE hits for 4,360 damage. That's ballparking an 11k heal for three GCDs and DA. Even on a critical hit, which is 1.5x's damage, is 16,350. If it's a direct hit and a crit, based on my understand of how direct hit works being an additional 25% damage from a normal attack, I'd assume the DH happens first, then the critical strike. If the following is true, that is a total heal of 20,438. In my current gear, I have 46,567 HP. I haven't even healed half my health under the best of circumstances baseline. To summarize, I have to not only direct hit, but crit as well to heal not even half of my health, but damn near close for those GCDs and the MP spent. I still see no problem with this.

Please stop posting in these threads. Because I just closed this debate for you. Learn math.

[Tint]

Except that it has been with the discussion of the core mechanics of the job. Please, tell me what the point of this thread is to you. You've come in, complained, and offered nothing in terms of contribution. You echo the obvious. Well done.

the point of this thread is the first thing the OP wrote in this topic:

In the spirit of being clear, I would like to outline the core issues of what I feel is wrong with Dark Knight currently in 4.0 and beyond, time of writing is 4.1. I encourage others to leave their comments, feelings and interpretations. However, in the spirit of not trying to "suggest fixes" I hope others will follow in not posting how to fix the issues, only post what the issues are in their view.

and the point and reason of this thread came from this person:

I suppose maybe I didn't word my opening post in the best manner. What I feel is a truly complete waste of time are all the people flooding this sub-forum all sorts of ideas of how to fix/balance/improve DRK. Many of which are just down right ridiculous or flat out imbalanced. As a result the threads where people are discussing the main core issues get drowned out. Since fact of the matter is the developers aren't going to use any of those ideas.

In short I'm saying I feel like keeping threads focused on the core issues and making sure we make ourselves greatly heard during the next Q&A is our best shot at getting changes.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

I'm at the point where I won't snub my nose to any suggestion, considering numerous jobs have gotten massive buffs in the last 4 months, some of which weren't even asked for. The ones that make imbalanced requests, and loudly, are the ones SE listens to. Not saying I like it, but its proven to be true.

Literally nobody in the WAR threads back in July was saying "hey guys calm down we probably shouldn't ask for this, it might be imbalanced..."

[Chrono_Rising]

I'm at the point where I won't snub my nose to any suggestion, considering numerous jobs have gotten massive buffs in the last 4 months, some of which weren't even asked for. The ones that make imbalanced requests, and loudly, are the ones SE listens to. Not saying I like it, but its proven to be true.

Literally nobody in the WAR threads back in July was saying "hey guys calm down we probably shouldn't ask for this, it might be imbalanced..."

100% agree. When other classes asked for buffs they didn’t care about being balanced, they cared about being the best.

In my opinion it’s why you see some paladins and warriors in Dark Knight feedback posts shifting the issues and telling us “hey it’s not so bad this is the best things have ever been for tanks”, like you should be honored that no one wants to run Dark Knight. It’s the same people telling us you can not compare skills one on one in a vacuum in one breath and telling us TBN is the answer to everything. They are at the top and they want to stay there, the view is better.

[WhyAmIHere]

100% agree. When other classes asked for buffs they didn’t care about being balanced, they cared about being the best.

In my opinion it’s why you see some paladins and warriors in Dark Knight feedback posts shifting the issues and telling us “hey it’s not so bad this is the best things have ever been for tanks, you should be honored that no one wants to run Dark Knight”. It’s the same people telling us you can not compare skills one on one in a vacuum in one breath and telling us TBN is the answer to everything. They are at the top and they want to stay there, the view is better.

I feel there's a parallel to be made here with healers over this situation, from a (albeit fatigued) casual viewpoint. WHM, SCH, and AST have their issues sure, but their identities are established: WHM can do regen and mass healing, SCH has shields and AoE mitigation aids, as well as their fairy, and AST can both both (stance pending) to a degree. You'll always want, in an ideal setup, a variation of the three, where each job has its role and purpose, and does it well. (Post edit: upon rereading my comment, the notion of AST being the wild card healer hit me with a good chuckle for it's irony/pun)
There isn't that for tanks, despite the two classes both having three options. The core issues are on SE's heads at this point. DRK needs an identity, a reason to be taken into *any* content. The framework is there I feel. We've a rapid self/ally mitigation tool, and despite my protestations of it being the lvl70 job quest reward for how pivotal it is supposed to be, it's a start.

I may be wrong on this, and if so I'll do to improve my knowledge on it, as healing's not admittedly something i really enjoy. But I can't help but see there's some element of balance with the three healers.