Monk

[NoctisUmbra]

You realize that PGL does comparable damage to every other class without activating a single MP drain stance right? You also realize that once it activates a stance it potentially blows every other DD out of the water when it comes to 1-1 DPS. Add to this the fact that it has skills that do recover enough MP to allow a PGL to sustain MP drained by a single buff.

The skills that drain MP on MNK will further increase MNK's utility in battle as well as DPS. Having so much more DPS comes with a cost - a stat you have to manage.

You see, your notion of MNK becoming weaker than any other DD class is based on absolutely nothing but conjecture. That will be based entirely on the magnitude of the buffs and how much DPS a MNK is able to put out with them active.

My estimation is, basing it off how potent PGL is at this time, that MNK will be very, very powerful - but will also be high maintenance. High cost = high reward.

You can continue to blindly whine about MNK requiring higher maintenance, but the fact remains at the end of the day whether or not the job is worthwhile will not depend on whether it uses MP or not. It will depend on if the power is worth the maintenance.

[Vackashken]

"The only way to cure a fool is to let him die."

Not gunna lie. That is a great quote, lol.

I digress, though. Got nothing personal against you at all. To phrase yourself : "Just bustin your chops."

In all seriousness though, I was under the impression that the Fists of Fire enhancement were actually a noticeable improvement in damage. So let's put it another way : If you could always use it, wouldn't you actually be, you know, over-powered ? Balance is about being equal or as close as possible, after all, right ?

Didn't take anything you said personal at all. Don't sweat it. You could look at it that way, or we could look at it as was a drg overpowered when it had a wyvern? Take my MP away or make me have to ration it am I what I am designed to be or am I just a shell of what the designers intend? Yes indeed balance is everything but that delicate (unknown) ratio of balance is far precarious with those extra variables (needing a brd and a DD who MUST have MP) much harder to even out.

[COLOR="navy"]You realize that PGL does comparable damage to every other class without activating a single MP drain stance right? You also realize that once it activates a stance it potentially blows every other DD out of the water when it comes to 1-1 DPS. Add to this the fact that it has skills that do recover enough MP to allow a PGL to sustain MP drained by a single buff.

Untill I see some hard data on that its all conjecture. I have never seen any pug blow any other DD out of the water. If you've got it put it up.

The skills that drain MP on MNK will further increase MNK's utility in battle as well as DPS. Having so much more DPS comes with a cost - a stat you have to manage.

Not my contention.

You see, your notion of MNK becoming weaker than any other DD class is based on absolutely nothing but conjecture. That will be based entirely on the magnitude of the buffs and how much DPS a MNK is able to put out with them active.

When did I say mnk is weaker in the vein of comparable DD? I said its handicapped by comparison for always needing a sister job with it to be truly unleashed. No other DD has that handicap or requirement. Again, at this point, that point is absolutely and adamantly irrefutable.

My estimation is, basing it off how potent PGL is at this time, that MNK will be very, very powerful - but will also be high maintenance. High cost = high reward.

I tend to agree with you (shocked, eh?) about it being possibly very powerful. I hope you're right but again that isn't my point. Nobody wants a high maintenance DD in their party. Efficiency is always sought after. Basically absolutely needing a brd for a DD is a crutch. Right now, we have it easy. If we ever get a fight in this game again that takes a load of time to complete managing MP is not going to be very well received. Period.

You can continue to blindly whine about MNK requiring higher maintenance, but the fact remains at the end of the day whether or not the job is worthwhile will not depend on whether it uses MP or not. It will depend on if the power is worth the maintenance.

First, I am not whining. Secondly, at the end of the day games will always revolve around what is most efficient and works best. Having a high maintenance DD that requires special attention in the sense of needing MP and keeping that up to be able to unleash its full potential isn't the best design. Sure, you can say the effort but that is far more in the realm of theory then what I am saying.

[NoctisUmbra]

Every competent Full Party will have a BRD. Every competent BRD will be buffing effectively.

PGL, and for that matter MNK, does not need MP to DPS well. Their stances and buffs put them over the edge. I've done my testing, and so have many people regarding the damage PGL puts out right now. You're welcome to do the same.

Your argument revolves around the key point that if a DD needs further management to put out comparable DPS as another DD, then it will not be desirable.

The flaw in that argument is nothing suggests that they will need the extra management to put out comparable damage. Based on the numbers PGL puts out now, it's more like the extra management is an option that allows PGL to surpass every DD by a noticeable margin.

Go try fighting any mob that isn't resistant to fire. Attack it on a LNC, an ARC, a MRD and what-have-you. See what you hit for. Then try PGL, with no stance. Then try PGL will Fists of Fire. Do those, and you won't feel the need to continue this debate.

Also worth noting, I said a mob not resistant to fire. If you manage to find one weak to fire, watch your AA hit like a string of weapon skills.

[Evaddaragon]

I'd have to say the part where I agree the most with Noctis is this :

The flaw in that argument is nothing suggests that they will need the extra management to put out comparable damage.

To me, it looks more like you'll need the management to be higher. Otherwise, if you always do more damage, then you're over-powered.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic though.

[silverdragontyr]

If you really think that Pgl is so much weaker then other DD then do this simple test any idiot could understand.

Go to an area with level 50+ enemies. Doesn't matter where. Bring with you a Mrd and and Lnc.

Pick an enemy. Have the Mrd and yourself hit it. You with no stance up, the Mrd with berserk up. Count the Mrd damage per hit. Count your damage per hit. Add your two fists together. Compare.

Pick an enemy. Have the Lnc and yourself hit it. You with no stance up, the Lnc with Power Surge III up. Count the Mrd damage per hit. Count your damage per hit. Add your two fists together. Compare.

Then once you've done this and say "Ha! See my damage is like 20-50 points lower!" , repeat this test, this time comparing your attack speed to theirs. Once you two hit at the exact same time, or very close after the first attack, you will have gained a full attack round over them. Count how much extra damage this adds up to.

THEN, after you've done this, use a stance, and repeat this test. Stance are dependent on the type of enemy and should not be used to check base damage. However on every enemy I have encountered at least one of the two stances increases your damage. It doesn't take parsers or calculating every minute detail of how the wind affected the impact of your punch or how gravity made the Mrd Axe hit harder. It takes using your eyes and not being an idiot. Pgl is not inherently weaker because they use MP. If you want to believe that, can't change your mind, but I know you're wrong.

If you still think Pgl is weak after this, well that's a damn shame. But SE isn't going to change the job because you're a whiny fool who can't be bothered to do anything more then auto-attack and use a WS every now and then.

[Vackashken]

If you really think that Pgl is so much weaker then other DD then do this simple test any idiot could understand.

Go to an area with level 50+ enemies. Doesn't matter where. Bring with you a Mrd and and Lnc.

Pick an enemy. Have the Mrd and yourself hit it. You with no stance up, the Mrd with berserk up. Count the Mrd damage per hit. Count your damage per hit. Add your two fists together. Compare.

Pick an enemy. Have the Lnc and yourself hit it. You with no stance up, the Lnc with Power Surge III up. Count the Mrd damage per hit. Count your damage per hit. Add your two fists together. Compare.

Then once you've done this and say "Ha! See my damage is like 20-50 points lower!" , repeat this test, this time comparing your attack speed to theirs. Once you two hit at the exact same time, or very close after the first attack, you will have gained a full attack round over them. Count how much extra damage this adds up to.

THEN, after you've done this, use a stance, and repeat this test. Stance are dependent on the type of enemy and should not be used to check base damage. However on every enemy I have encountered at least one of the two stances increases your damage. It doesn't take parsers or calculating every minute detail of how the wind affected the impact of your punch or how gravity made the Mrd Axe hit harder. It takes using your eyes and not being an idiot. Pgl is not inherently weaker because they use MP. If you want to believe that, can't change your mind, but I know you're wrong.

If you still think Pgl is weak after this, well that's a damn shame. But SE isn't going to change the job because you're a whiny fool who can't be bothered to do anything more then auto-attack and use a WS every now and then.

Outstanding, clown!

The flaw in that argument is nothing suggests that they will need the extra management to put out comparable damage. Based on the numbers PGL puts out now, it's more like the extra management is an option that allows PGL to surpass every DD by a noticeable margin.

Again thats a lot of supposition. Granted I am arguing with conjecture as well but mine is more based in reality. Whos to say all other DD won't be enhanced as well substantially? In particular with how DRG was described. Again, leaving Mnk the absolute need to have a brd with it handicapping it in comparison to any other DD. This, just about any way you wanna cut, makes the mnk a tide and flow DD which is not wanted in any kind of long term fight. Fighting 50 mobs is basically meaningless to me in this regard.

I am talking about NMs and any kind of high end level mob.

As for always having a brd again maybe maybe not. Again, doesn't change the fact you have to have a symbiosis relationship with another class as an absolute.

[NoctisUmbra]

Again thats a lot of supposition. Granted I am arguing with conjecture as well but mine is more based in reality. Whos to say all other DD won't be enhanced as well substantially? In particular with how DRG was described. Again, leaving Mnk the absolute need to have a brd with it handicapping it in comparison to any other DD. This, just about any way you wanna cut, makes the mnk a tide and flow DD which is not wanted in any kind of long term fight. Fighting 50 mobs is basically meaningless to me in this regard.

I am talking about NMs and any kind of high end level mob.

As for always having a brd again maybe maybe not. Again, doesn't change the fact you have to have a symbiosis relationship with another class as an absolute.

Yes, the conjecture in both of our arguments are granted - as we are discussing something we don't have access to. The difference is I am using the classes that are the bases of these jobs and the way they stand right now to project how the jobs will function.

DRG and MNK are clearly, by description and by design in the way of the skills they are being given, are being built to deal damage. WAR also appears to show design facets of a DD, however also that of an offensive tank. BRD supplements ARC with party support abilities rather than self-buffs in the way DD jobs appear to.

So let's take LNC and PGL now. Between the two, PGL is capable of dishing out noticeably higher damage than LNC when it utilizes a stance. Without a stance the damage is much more comparable, yet the edge would still go to PGL in most circumstances. Their attack speed as well as the pure, punishing power of Howling Fist especially when coupled with PGL's enhanced Blindside give them an edge.

Considering SE got it right with the class balance by giving PGL a noticeable edge in DPS as a reward for MP management, suspicion of them getting it wrong with jobs isn't warranted.

As for the bit about NMs and bosses, try PGL in Moogle fight and see how hard you hit Whiskerwall and Ruffletuft for with your AA and compare it to other DDs.

FoF PGL's 80-100 per hit (total ~160-200) compared to the 40-50 of a ARC Light Shot should give you an idea.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

Are you brain dead or just deliberately being thick? A DD who is not a mage should not need constant MP supply from another source. Mages and Tanks are different because they aren't a dime a dozen while we can be replaced for less "hands on care" class by several other DD types.

The shortsightedness is based on a DD needing a MP supplier when so many others don't. Sorry, no I don't want to be passed up instantly because I am higher maintenance if a brd isn't around.

Late on the party, but...step aside the attitude you showed in previuses posts, in a lot of games a lot of physical DD use mana as a resource. Your statement is invalid.

[Wicka]

OK, I am not even close to the endgame stuff (just started xiv about a month ago). But I have played my share of games, and even designed a few. Any class that uses it's fists to beat the tar out of it's opponents is always my favorite. And I have to say that the mechanics behind PUG combat are very sound.

As a simple example:

PUG maintains consistent damage output through AA mostly, with considerable complimentary damage through nice weapon-skills. Overall, keeping pace with other DD classes.

Through the use of MP, the PUG's AutoAttack becomes better, even surpassing the damage output of similar classes. And as a counter-weight to the delicate high-wire act that is multi-player gaming, the MP must be managed by the player because it is a limited resource. This creates balance, and calls for the player to be actively monitoring his resources.

I believe (didn't feel like going and finding that post) that Vack likened the PUG/MONK's viability in party play to an ebb/flow, tide-like mechanic that is undesirable. And this is true in part. It is true that the PUG/MONK has an ebb/flow mechanic. But this works, because of the way the class is designed.

Combat works like this for PUG:
Straight AA > Modified AA > Straight AA (because MP is gone) with a sprinkling of ability bursting mixed throughout.

And because the PUG has MP regenerating abilities built in, it is obvious that it was DESIGNED to ebb and flow. So you go from very high damage output, to an output that is still comparable to other classes while you regain MP through feather-foot and sucker-punch, back to high damage as you begin to toggle your stances back on.

Also, I think I should point out that the above IS your 'optimum' state. NEEDING a bard in order to be at your optimal state is a fallacy. The bard's job as a buffer class is to push others 'beyond' their optimum. Does buffing not enhance the defense of the tank, which in turn allows him to tank more? Same with healing. If anything, bard is the class that requires others to be efficient. Having a bard on board will allow the PUG/MONK to not even have to take a breather.

In summation:

[Meleena]

All this is good but useless until they make a fight that requires use of the goddamn monk in this game... (or at least doesn't make all the other classes preferable)