4.11+ DRK Suggestions/Balance Changes from a "Hardcore" Player

[Crater]

This could fix something from a balance standpoint, but would it be interesting gameplay wise ?
I think it would make Blood Gauge feel as bland as the Oath Gauge, since you have no real decision to make on how to spend it (or how you build it).

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS, there's room to build meaningful choices and make interesting gameplay out of DRK's full mitigation suite, and there's room to build a version of DRK that feels powerful compared to the other tanks without just becoming a better version of those tanks.

Similarly, if DRK's DPS became driven entirely by resources that are dedicated to damage, it would be possible to adjust the usage and power of that resource independently, to put DRK on par with the other tanks, without running into concerns that you'd be supercharging or hamstringing its defensive capabilities.


Thinking ambitiously, it's easy to imagine an overhauled version of DRK where TBN becomes essentially their only non-crossclass skill that directly handles mitigation, but with several 'sub-stances' like the 4.x versions of Mage's Ballad/Army's Paeon/Wanderer's Minuet that alter the behavior of the skill, and a Dark Arts modifier that increases the effectiveness. DRK becomes a purely active-mitigation tank that nevertheless has a full set of feature-complete defensive tools that are well-equipped to handle any sort of tanking situation, limited only by their MP pool/generation.

[Reynhart]

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS

If DRK would get some changes, I bet Dark Arts would still be the same, so MP would probably be the damage ressource. Which basically is already how people seems to play DRK. No real meaningful choice there, just spam DA whenever you can, except the C&S priority.

Si it would leave Blood as our mitigation ressource, and a Blood-based-TBN as a poor man's Sheltron/Intervention.

[Chrono_Rising]

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS, there's room to build meaningful choices and make interesting gameplay out of DRK's full mitigation suite, and there's room to build a version of DRK that feels powerful compared to the other tanks without just becoming a better version of those tanks.

Similarly, if DRK's DPS became driven entirely by resources that are dedicated to damage, it would be possible to adjust the usage and power of that resource independently, to put DRK on par with the other tanks, without running into concerns that you'd be supercharging or hamstringing its defensive capabilities.
...

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage. This and using my mana are the only things that feel dark knightish to me on the class, and making our resources based on mana and blood separately would feel less like dark knight and more like paladin. The problem is the reward isn't high enough to justify the risks, the solution is easy enough I think, buffing dark arts and proportionately raising bloodspiller would raise the rewards without having to kill one of the few identities we have, which is risk reward.

[Deceptus]

The fact that we're this far into Stormblood with no changes is ridiculous.

DRK's need an extra mitigation or a damage debuff.

Sole Survivor needs to do SOMETHING for boss fights, damage taken up or damage done down. It's useless currently.

[kamenkuro]

5. Reprisal - Lower's target damage dealt by 15%. Recast: 90s. Make this a DRK Exclusive Skill, this would remake DRK's identity back to the debuff tank. Remove Reprisal from WAR and PLD, they already have their party-wide HP shield combo.

No, please, I mainly use WAR and I use that a lot

[Reynhart]

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage.

Knowing how to do this should be the trademark of good tanks, but right now, not choosing damage is almost always the wrong choice.

It stacks with my gripe about the tank stances...overall, mitigation tools are not significant enough on the field, so focusing them in worthless.

[Chrono_Rising]

Knowing how to do this should be the trademark of good tanks, but right now, not choosing damage is almost always the wrong choice.

It stacks with my gripe about the tank stances...overall, mitigation tools are not significant enough on the field, so focusing them in worthless.

Yes, but when other tanks can offer both without a dps loss dark knight either needs to offer more of both, but have to actively decide between which to use. But thats just my two cents.

[Crater]

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage. This and using my mana are the only things that feel dark knightish to me on the class, and making our resources based on mana and blood separately would feel less like dark knight and more like paladin. The problem is the reward isn't high enough to justify the risks, the solution is easy enough I think, buffing dark arts and proportionately raising bloodspiller would raise the rewards without having to kill one of the few identities we have, which is risk reward.

I like the idea in concept, but I just don't think that it works for Dark Knight. If you want to make a system where you choose to spend a single resource on either offense or defense, the "rewards" for doing so are never going to be high enough unless you meet two conditions: 1) If you spend all of your possible resources on offense, you must be the strongest offensive tank, and 2) If you spend all of your possible resources on defense, you must be the strongest defensive tank.

Now you could do that for DRK, and I'd fully advocate for it, but the problem there is: That's literally already what Warrior is. A Warrior who spends all of their BG on offensive skills does more damage than any other tank, and a Warrior who spends all of their BG on defensive skills is more of an unkillable wall than any other tank. I'm personally fine with the idea of DRK just leapfrogging WAR and doing more damage when they focus on damage, and being even tankier than a Defiance WAR when they don't, but that's obviously not really a tenable situation long-term.

In addition to that, it's actually the reverse of what DRK was in Heavensward, which is something that I really appreciated about DRK in 3.x. While 3.x WAR actually sacrificed a lot of defensive ability to put out maximum damage - In addition to spending all their stacks on Fell Cleaves, remember that they'd also need to blow Raw Intuition and/or Vengeance every Berserk to get a triple Cleave, and would want to blow the other cooldown elsewhere for more non-Berserk Cleaves - 3.x DRK was the opposite: DRK had access to every single bit of their defensive kit (other than Grit, obviously) while doing their maximum damage. Even spending a Dark Arts on DADM couldn't be considered a straight potency loss, because the relationship between MP and potency wasn't nearly as simplistic and direct as it is in 4.x.

The reason that people ran DRK/WAR instead of WAR/WAR in 3.x wasn't just for the sake of Limit Break generation. WAR actually just could not, despite its general overpoweredness, match or exceed the balance between DPS output and tankiness that DRK generally brought to the table (with a handful of very specific exceptions where WAR/WAR made sense).

Ideally, I think that's where I'd like to see DRK go. Equal to WAR in total DPS, while being lower than WAR in burst damage, and substantially tankier than a pure-Deliverance Warrior, without having to trade DPS for that mitigation. I think the best way to get there would be to just decouple DRK's damage and mitigation, which is easy to do without either of those things becoming boring or oversimplified, because of the nature of DRK's dual-resource job mechanics, and the use of 'modifier' skills like Dark Arts (figure something like Dark Arts for MP, Blood Arts for Blood).

[Reynhart]

Yes, but when other tanks can offer both without a dps loss dark knight either needs to offer more of both, but have to actively decide between which to use. But thats just my two cents.

Sure, it would be far more interesting gameplay wise. They only need to make it more rewarding.

The easiest way to make people want to use TBN more is to increase the potency on BloodSpiller.
Or, like talked above, having DA+TBN apply to all members, and every shield that breaks give back Blood.