Thread: 4.11+ DRK Suggestions/Balance Changes from a "Hardcore" Player

Originally Posted by Lyth

I think the reason why TBN needs to be paired is to ensure that you're still following a cooldown rotation. Otherwise, it just becomes an issue of hitting the correct MP threshold before the hit. Of course, that brings us into other issues with how the rest of our cooldowns are designed.

The thing is though that there's fairly little mileage to get out of a version of DRK that's just as concerned with having a strict cooldown rotation as the other tanks. If TBN is designed such that it's not sufficient for mitigation on tankbusters and needs to be paired with another cooldown, you might as well strip it out of the game and just buff the standard mitigation toolkit until it's as powerful as a Warrior's - at which point you have two classes trying to do the exact same thing in the exact same way, and one of them is always going to be in the doghouse (and historically speaking, if you're a tank and you're gambling on "Am I going to be better or worse than a Warrior at doing the things that Warriors do?" you're probably walking away disappointed).

I don't think there's a problem with a design where DRK's defensive identity becomes "You can mitigate anything you want, as long as you have the resources to do so", with little to no reliance on traditional cooldowns. But to get to that design, you have to improve their active mitigation to the point where it's sufficient to mitigate basically everything in the game (so long as you can stay on top of your resource management*).


*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

Originally Posted by Reynhart

MP gives Blood with TBN
Blood gives MP with Quietus

We could somehow generalize that to all MP and Blood expenses.

You can exchange between the two, and in some instances use one to gain the other, but that's not really what I'm talking about.


MP is used to deal damage and to bolster your defenses.
Blood is used only to deal damage.

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

Originally Posted by Crater

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

Originally Posted by Crater

*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

It's something that I've really come around on lately. Initially I kind of liked the interplay of the two resources, and I still feel like there are a few fun interactions there (for instance, DRK's dungeon playstyle of "MP for TBN (for mitigation) -> Creates Blood you can spend on Quietus (for some of the better tank AoE in the game) -> Restores MP for every target hit -> And now you have enough for several extra ADs (for sustained damage), a DAAD (for damage/healing), or sometimes even a DADP (for burst damage and just a hint of mitigation)" is really cool, and very involved compared to most other AoE rotations, including for actual DPS classes). And I still feel like it's possible to make a version of DRK where the interplay between those resources is actually meaningful, fun, and effective.

But in practice, right now they're both basically doing the same thing, they're barely even doing that same thing in different ways, and the constraints of each system (along with the clunky ways in which they are tied together) are really holding back a lot of design options that should be on the table to fix the class, but just aren't because if you play Six Degrees of Bloodspiller, sooner or later you run into a brick wall where you can't buff Power Slash because every time you do it the servers have to check every player's inventory and it would crash Primal.

Originally Posted by Crater

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

This could fix something from a balance standpoint, but would it be interesting gameplay wise ?
I think it would make Blood Gauge feel as bland as the Oath Gauge, since you have no real decision to make on how to spend it (or how you build it).

Originally Posted by Reynhart

This could fix something from a balance standpoint, but would it be interesting gameplay wise ?
I think it would make Blood Gauge feel as bland as the Oath Gauge, since you have no real decision to make on how to spend it (or how you build it).

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS, there's room to build meaningful choices and make interesting gameplay out of DRK's full mitigation suite, and there's room to build a version of DRK that feels powerful compared to the other tanks without just becoming a better version of those tanks.

Similarly, if DRK's DPS became driven entirely by resources that are dedicated to damage, it would be possible to adjust the usage and power of that resource independently, to put DRK on par with the other tanks, without running into concerns that you'd be supercharging or hamstringing its defensive capabilities.


Thinking ambitiously, it's easy to imagine an overhauled version of DRK where TBN becomes essentially their only non-crossclass skill that directly handles mitigation, but with several 'sub-stances' like the 4.x versions of Mage's Ballad/Army's Paeon/Wanderer's Minuet that alter the behavior of the skill, and a Dark Arts modifier that increases the effectiveness. DRK becomes a purely active-mitigation tank that nevertheless has a full set of feature-complete defensive tools that are well-equipped to handle any sort of tanking situation, limited only by their MP pool/generation.

Originally Posted by Crater

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS

If DRK would get some changes, I bet Dark Arts would still be the same, so MP would probably be the damage ressource. Which basically is already how people seems to play DRK. No real meaningful choice there, just spam DA whenever you can, except the C&S priority.

Si it would leave Blood as our mitigation ressource, and a Blood-based-TBN as a poor man's Sheltron/Intervention.

Originally Posted by Crater

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS, there's room to build meaningful choices and make interesting gameplay out of DRK's full mitigation suite, and there's room to build a version of DRK that feels powerful compared to the other tanks without just becoming a better version of those tanks.

Similarly, if DRK's DPS became driven entirely by resources that are dedicated to damage, it would be possible to adjust the usage and power of that resource independently, to put DRK on par with the other tanks, without running into concerns that you'd be supercharging or hamstringing its defensive capabilities.
...

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage. This and using my mana are the only things that feel dark knightish to me on the class, and making our resources based on mana and blood separately would feel less like dark knight and more like paladin. The problem is the reward isn't high enough to justify the risks, the solution is easy enough I think, buffing dark arts and proportionately raising bloodspiller would raise the rewards without having to kill one of the few identities we have, which is risk reward.

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage.

Knowing how to do this should be the trademark of good tanks, but right now, not choosing damage is almost always the wrong choice.

It stacks with my gripe about the tank stances...overall, mitigation tools are not significant enough on the field, so focusing them in worthless.