Dusting off the Tome: Summoner Feedback for 4.1

[Karshan]

I mean, while in Life of the Dragon, Dragoons can still start gathering new eyes for the future LoTD phase. That's all that is asked for SMN as well.
Ariomi explained perfectly the very problem with the gates and the way it is set right now.

The cycle as described by Eireen is very neat on paper, and a lot of people don't see the problem with it and think SMN is simple since it exists.
They don't see but a mess up or a boss jump and good by the neat wheel, because the end of each arrow of this wheel is like a checkpoint where you can't go back.
Forgot a skill like rouse ? See ya in 20 seconds. And holding some skills 20 seconds instead of being able to use them ASAP when you see you missed them can be a DPS loss depending on the situation.

But it's not the loss that bothers me : it's the principle, really. IT. DOES. NOT. FLOW. Sometimes feels like swimming against the current.

Not acceptable when
1. Drowning was not needed before in HS to do good DPS
2. Stormblood was supposed to make classes more comfy, not make them harder to play optimally.

[Llugen]

Heavensward DRK WAS shit until it was fixed, and WHM DID need fixing (the lilies), in case you forgot. So uh yeah, my point absolutely still stands. By the way, WHM is basically on the outs yet again, as we mostly predicted, because SCH is just too good with Stratagem and and AST is too good of support/heal bomb as well. And I think I don't even need to say anything about the current state of DRK.


The "patience" of our playerbase is out of force, not out of grace. I'm not saying players are perfect mathematical machines, but it's definitely safe to say that the players of the game spend more time playing the game than the devs, and by extension testing the classes in way more various scenarios in a short time than the handful of devs could possibly even do in a whole year. This entire middleman step could be foregone if there was a larger cross section of the playerbase that could test classes before mass implementation and then waiting another four months for fixes. Surely you must see how inefficient this is...?

I would say that the rotation itself of SMN is much more comfy, because there is a lot less hard DoT management and more just filling with Ruin III, but managing the timers is REALLY annoying. I'd warrant that the developed opener for the job was not at all what the devs had in mind when designing the job, which is part of where the disconnect comes in (Remember the 19 second pull timers for NIN? They didn't anticipate that either, so they had to nerf NIN in 2.45 slightly to make up for it)

[Karshan]

Couldn't agree more.

Dots management is a joke now AND YET, the class feels more difficult, like a checklist on a plane before departure. That's peculiar to say the least (less dots, yet more things to follow, seriously wtf)

[Remedi]

Heavensward DRK WAS shit until it was fixed, and WHM DID need fixing (the lilies), in case you forgot. So uh yeah, my point absolutely still stands. By the way, WHM is basically on the outs yet again, as we mostly predicted, because SCH is just too good with Stratagem and and AST is too good of support/heal bomb as well. And I think I don't even need to say anything about the current state of DRK.


The "patience" of our playerbase is out of force, not out of grace. I'm not saying players are perfect mathematical machines, but it's definitely safe to say that the players of the game spend more time playing the game than the devs, and by extension testing the classes in way more various scenarios in a short time than the handful of devs could possibly even do in a whole year. This entire middleman step could be foregone if there was a larger cross section of the playerbase that could test classes before mass implementation and then waiting another four months for fixes. Surely you must see how inefficient this is...?

I would say that the rotation itself of SMN is much more comfy, because there is a lot less hard DoT management and more just filling with Ruin III, but managing the timers is REALLY annoying. I'd warrant that the developed opener for the job was not at all what the devs had in mind when designing the job, which is part of where the disconnect comes in (Remember the 19 second pull timers for NIN? They didn't anticipate that either, so they had to nerf NIN in 2.45 slightly to make up for it)

DRK fix was only to their TP management outside of that they didn't get much else apart a bug of darkside (which btw was a problem for PLD too and didn't got fix) Problem is the forum exploded with ppl claiming DRK didn't had the mitigation to actually tank anything, WHM lilies didn't get much fixes and they still are shit, also WHM still extremely good because of their strong output in fact you see a WHM in most ultimate comp, true they are not on speed run comps but I'd say it can be considered fair as the job is very strong.
Yet ppl said it was utter shit regardless, while the real healer job that was hit hard was SCH (it received the most changes) and even good players didn't see that coming.

Also DRK are in this condition Because ppl kept whining about WAR bringing no raid utility, while forgetting they have like the best self mitigation, best tank dps and best aggro opener to boot.

[Llugen]

People thought WHM was shit because they didn't consider the value of Thin Air. There was nothing new and flashy for the job outside of that and Stone IV which wasn't exactly "flashy", AND while losing Stoneskin. The lily system still isn't exactly great but it's improved, is the point. The panic was well-warranted.

There are certainly people who don't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't mean that everything that everyone says should be dismissed. Many players like you and I strongly consider job balance over just flat buffs and "complaining about nothing." If people can't tell the difference, then sorry to say but that's their own fault.

[Remedi]

No, ppl considered WHM shit because they essentially wanted for SE to give WHMs AOE Balance.
And as said it's not just normal ppl but even good players that didn't see well enough the changes.
It was easy enough to see that the entire WHM was becoming the most MP efficent fo the 3 healers and was easy to see that SCH was getting the shaft, but they got Chain stratagem so everything was good no?

The worst of all is that all of this happened with DRK at launch with ppl saying that they wouldn't be able to MT in alexander because they were too frail (this was before their TP problems came).
The community likes too much to panic and indulge in Hysteria that makes me shiver that SE might just follow too much this trends (especially since they did in the past).

Imho They have already shown to us that they can come out with some nice touches on how to improve the dps of the jobs with just potency buffs (WHM changes and the cast time changes toF4 and B4 which imho don't get as much appreciation as they should) so I don't really think we should have this attitude of beign the best of the best and knowing much better than them, becase honestly we have been as narrow-minded as them in more than 1 occasion

[Larx]

I'm gonna be honest I think smn needs to be nerfed now... It has broken a fundamental rule of balance in this game, It now (when in the right hands) does more damage than samurai and black mage AND has support. Samurai and Black mage should do the most damage out of any job due to the fact of them bringing no support. Now that a job beats them in personal dps it makes them kinda useless. This doesn't mean I want it to be completely nerfed to the ground or something that would be wrong, I just think it shouldn't do as much dps as it does. I feel like it should do around as much or a little less dps than a mnk (due to the fact melees have a little more risk involed being in close range but idk i could be wrong about this).

[Flarestar]

It has broken a fundamental rule of balance in this game, It now (when in the right hands) does more damage than samurai and black mage AND has support.

This. Mechanical issues with summoner aside, the most recent changes put it seriously out of balance. There's no reason at all to want a BLM in your party at this point, and even before the changes it was marginal, since only truly exceptional BLMs could pull enough dps to make up for their lack of support options. And please, don't bring up Addle and Apoc. All three casters get that, it's not in point in favor or against. And frankly poor RDMs at this point need a substantial potency buff to their melee combo or *something*, because right now it and DRK have fallen seriously behind, balance-wise. Even Embolden in a full physical comp doesn't really make up for their lack of dps.

SMN *should* be sitting at the brd/mch damage tier. Played properly they bring near-equivalent support options.

[Remedi]

careful brd and mch are not really balanced between themselves either, if you start using a magnifiying glass many things may start to stand out

[dinnertime]

SMN *should* be sitting at the brd/mch damage tier. Played properly they bring near-equivalent support options.

Uhhhhh no.
SMN doesn't bring support as good as MCH and especially the unrivaled support capability of BRD to have lower damage like theirs.

Plus that SMN's pet utilities are situational except Devotion.