Should Divine Benison be improved?

[Tridus]

I'm not too sure on this one. Compared to the other two healers, Asylum is much easier to use and totals at a potency of 800 which is definitely a GCD or two saved in healing. It's basically a tank HoT in most scenarios, but that's still a good tool to have. ASTs bubble is great, but it has very limited use. You can pretty much only use it when everyone needs to stack and also you'll only keep it up if nothing is targetable. Otherwise it's basically used like a point blank Asylum, which is not always convenient. SCH loses to both in the battle of the bubbles because their one is flat out useless unless it actually mitigates a death. Being tied to AF means it's in competition with abilities that are better than it in most scenarios.

As a tank HoT, Aslyum works. WHM already has a tank HoT, though, and two of them if you're using Medica II. A third one that has a side effect of temporarily locking out DB (unless you use it after DB) is not exactly very interesting. I'd probably enjoy it more if they changed it to "everyone standing in this gains 10% skill/spell speed", because it'd let me fling rocks faster.

CU and SS are more limited use, but they do very useful things in those situations, stacking isn't exactly uncommon, and they don't require the party to stand still for the entire duration to work. I mean, SS *could*, if you used it as a tank mitigation, but then it's doing something better than Asylum with the same limitations.

I've actually been a little baffled at this, but I can actually understand why WHMs have complained about PI so much. When you look at their HW additions, WHMs got abilities that were useful in a general sense. I'm a SCH main, and when HW hit 3/5 of our new abilities were pretty much linked to raiding only. Both tactics and Dissipation were extremely situational in casual content and really shined as tools in raids. I'm not 100% sure about other jobs, but based on that alone I can say that it's not unheard of for a job to get abilities that may only have uses in higher end content. So I don't really see Plenary as a 'problem'. You might not see it being used all the time, but it has proven its use in Savage, mainly 04s.

Keep in mind that we're on the second version of PI now. WHMs complained about the first version so much because it required spamming Cure to get confessions at a 20% rate, and would only heal targets with confessions... which meant it was effectively a tank heal. There's been far less complaining since it was changed to be usable. It works fine now, it's just something that only really shines at the bleeding edge. And that's fine. Those buttons are going to exist. I'd rather see fewer of them than more, of course. (Probably one of the reasons I dislike SCH is just how many buttons feel that way, where you're constantly juggling all these situational things. For those who enjoy that style of gameplay, great!)

[Miste]

The former is a fight which actually favors WHM's capabilities because you can spend so much time stacked and Almagest is a match made in heaven for Cure III. And yet, it was first solo-healed by an AST (very soon after release, I'll add). This gets to the core of the problem which I was trying to articulate: healing (/shielding/mit) in general is so powerful that the strengths of WHM are virtually irrelevant.

How does an AST solo healing O4S make WHM irrelevant when 99% of groups cannot solo heal O4S? I mean we cannot base the game difficulty or job balance based on the <1% of insanely good 99th percentile players who are capable of doing a fight in a way that the devs didn't intend.

I mean maybe the devs will make the next savage tier so hard to heal that no one can solo heal it to make sure no healer has a "soloable" advantage over another healer (even though like I said barely anyone in this game is capable of taking advantage of that during progression or before nerfs and echo), but guess what is going to happen? A lot of midcore groups won't even be able to clear it with two healers.

It's "just more healing" on a Job which has it in spades. So the issues I see here are: (1) the game offers few opportunities to showcase the healing differential WHM benefits from, and (2) even when it does provide those opportunities, AST can just AOE Bole + Collective + shield through it. Healing? How quaint. Why bother with the stress?

Why bother with healing? Because that is how WHM plays?

WHM heals through the damage with less mitigation.
Noct AST uses mitigation for the damage with less healing.

It is simply two different styles of "keeping the party alive" that accomplish the same thing in the end. I mean do we want all healers to just be able to do the same thing? Make them into carbon copies of each other just because one AST solo healed O4S.

Also the game is designed with two healers working in tandem using the two above healing styles.

Take MP economy. No question, it's there. But between the Ewer, the ability to extend Lucid Dreaming's duration (a double insult given this was originally WHM's ability), Light Speed, and then the potential presence of SMN/BLM MP batteries or a BRD, well, what's so good about WHM, again?

AST does not use Ewer for MP unless a large amount of deaths are happening and eating MP or if the AST themselves dies and even if you did need an Ewer there is zero guarantee you will get one when you need it because it is RNG. No good AST will Spread an Ewer and hold on to it either. Using Ewer for MP has a pretty bad detriment because you aren't use it to setup damage boosts for the group.

Lightspeed (situational because it has a detriment of nerfing your DPS magic and you should be weaving DPS magic in the majority of content) and increasing the duration of Lucid Dreaming is basically AST's answer to Assize and Thin Air. Which in my experience playing both jobs Thin Air is still superior for MP management and Assize not only heals and does damage, but also gives you 10% MP back as a bonus as well. I would say extending the duration of LD is just similar to using Lilies on Assize and the key fact AST has nothing like Thin Air.

As for MP batteries....I'm pretty sure Mana Shift and BRD/MCH Refresh also works on WHMs and not just ASTs...so WHM can reap the benefits of that as well...so what point were you trying to make there?

So AST definitely isn't in a bad spot for MP, they are fine, but WHM is still better off because of Thin Air especially. MP management is really totally fine for all healers at the moment so this is a non-issue and a bad argument to make that WHM is somehow lacking compared to AST.

So yeah please...WHM is not irrelevant just because one player (that we can prove anyway) solo healed O4S on AST and of all the things to pick to complain that AST has better you choose MP and that it is an insult to WHM? I personally just cannot take this seriously at all. /shrug

[Erakir]

I'm not sure Trunks is talking about WHM being irrelevant, more towards a broader view of the healing systems in this game and concern for where it's all going. That said -

You don't ignore the tip top optimization of classes simply because most groups won't achieve it.

You certainly don't balance entirely around it, but you don't ignore it either. It's important to know what the ceilings are.

As for MP batteries....I'm pretty sure Mana Shift and BRD/MCH Refresh also works on WHMs and not just ASTs...so WHM can reap the benefits of that as well...so what point were you trying to make there?

So AST definitely isn't in a bad spot for MP, they are fine, but WHM is still better off because of Thin Air especially. MP management is really totally fine for all healers at the moment so this is a non-issue and a bad argument to make that WHM is somehow lacking compared to AST.

You missed the point entirely when it comes to MP, and in fact further emphasize it.

MP economy is often touted as a particular strength of WHM because, well, it certainly has ridiculous MP economy. Yet, that economy doesn't often come into play super often because other healer MP seems fine, particularly because of the abundance of MP batteries. Sure, WHM can get mana shift and refresh too.

So? What's it gonna do with that MP? Dump Cure 3s or holy spam for no apparent reason? We're already tailored around being able to cast cure 3 when relevant, and all of us are bound by the GCD. It's not gonna let us stone more; our single target DPS is cheap as heck. That refresh and mana shift are such a minor hit to the jobs using them means even the argument of "Well we have a WHM so we have to mana shift less" is poor, and it's not like there's amazing other role actions for them to take. I suppose if you had to have surecast you could keep Apocatastasis if you had the leeway to drop mana shift. Meanwhile, refresh compared to previous expansion Mage's Ballad - not losing any damage anymore to pop that one.

Until we see fights that play towards that strong MP economy more, it's not a good argument for "This is one of the things WHM brings to the table." We can also talk all we want about when everything is on fire and people are spamming desperately to stay alive, but at most this is a time saver for learning fights and does not come into play when people are playing relatively effective - not "on farm" - just reasonably well. This game, on the savage level, is not one where you will hobble through to a victory on death's door unless you already overgear the encounter.

Others have already mentioned how it can be a bigger benefit in, for instance, 24 mans, and they are correct - a WHM can keep going and that boss is not likely to have strict enrages. Same thing with dungeon and holy spam. But when we're talking about savage, it's another story and I find the MP economy argument doesn't hold much water specifically because nobody is hurting that badly on the MP front. I would argue if it were a more significant hit for mana batteries, the MP economy would naturally have more of an effect, as it did in the past. I mean, you only need look at the opportunity cost for using Ewers and how people want to avoid that on AST cause the other options are, quite frankly, more useful in most scenarios.

Edit: Does that mean WHM is irrelevant? Nope. So many times we've talked about things being pretty balanced all in all right now, and I will hold that view as well till more changes~

[Miste]

You missed the point entirely when it comes to MP, and in fact further emphasize it.

MP economy is often touted as a particular strength of WHM because, well, it certainly has ridiculous MP economy. Yet, that economy doesn't often come into play super often because other healer MP seems fine

No I didn't. You didn't understand my point about it.

MP is still a strength even if some content doesn't always make use of it. FYI MP on WHM is insanely good in dungeons after WHM obtains Thin Air. Much Holy to be had.

I mean why does WHM's MP management have to be way higher than the other two in order for it to be fair? I mean we want balance right? That doesn't seem balanced if WHM never runs out of MP ever and the other two constantly bottom out extremely quickly. Right now though WHM has a bit of an advantage, but the gap between WHM and AST/SCH isn't so large where AST/SCH are having major issues managing their MP. So to me it seems to be in a good place.

The balance for MP management seems fine, WHM has a bit better as a bonus especially if mistakes are made WHM has good recovery power, but the other healer's skill requirements aren't spiking due to difficult MP management. SE specifically said they are moving away from making certain jobs harder or easier to play than others. They want the difficulty to be around the same for each job so making MP management very difficult for 2/3 of the healers while one is far superior seems against what they said they are doing currently.

I mean these arguments about "their strengths don't come into play" is a pointless argument, because 95% of this game no job's strengths come into play when no mistakes are being made. The only time any role has their strengths come into real play is in savage, rabanastre where tons of people make tons of mistakes, and Shinryu at release was quite good difficulty, or when a lot of mistakes happen in some other really easy content. That is 6 instances in the entire game where it is difficult enough to need your strengths? (I mean I almost wouldn't count O1S and O2S even).

People have to constantly tell people what is good about WHM because people -still- complain about WHM like we are still in 3.4.

What is good about WHM doesn't mean their strengths are far superior to the other two healers, just that WHM is good and powerful right now and around the same level as the other healers.

I mean we want balance right? If WHM is around the same level as the other healers then that seems like balance to me. Person I responded to was basically making it out to be AST was stepping all over WHM still like this was 3.4. This isn't 3.4 and AST doesn't step all over WHM anymore. Both are good and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

A really high percentile skilled AST solo healing O4S doesn't mean WHM isn't balanced enough or is lacking because SE simply doesn't balance their jobs or the fights around solo healing. So WHM is very prominent in O4S groups who do the normal design based composition of 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS.


I mean my post directly responds to things he posted. If I misunderstood then okay, but he did say WHM is irrelevant and the way he compared the MP seems to me he was making it out to be an issue. So it seemed to me he was saying that AST is just far superior in everything. That would mean he doesn't think the healers are balanced so that is why I replied what I replied.

[Erakir]

snip

What's your point, then? That everything is fine so we shouldn't talk about anything? We shouldn't consider modifications that might make the experience more enjoyable?

I get that you're concerned about people talking like it's 3.4 WHM all over again, but I haven't seen tons of people saying that either - just this mindset that everyone who brings up anything is overexagerating. Yeah I see some (Admittedly...some post more than others about it..) It's not all.

And, daresay it, that's the exact same type of response I remember when people first brought up concerns about how square was deciding to buff AST in 3.1. "Be quiet, you just want to be broken". If referencing 3.4 WHM is a flawed easy-out to argue for buffs to WHM, dismissing immediately under the premise of "It's not 3.4 anymore" is just the other side. I'm very much worried about these kinds of responses to discussions.

As for MP -

Yes yes, much holy, funsies in dungeons. Luckily there's more than dungeons to consider, since as you say, no one's toolkits are being tested to the extreme there in nearly all scenarios.

I mean, if we take the argument about something being a strength even if it's not always needed to the extreme, we end up with the possibility of a class that's downright mandatory for a fight and useless in others. It has happened in the past, not necessarily in FFXIV, but there are examples. I still hold there is much that can be done to encounters to enforce different styles of play than what we've seen throughout the past few years, and I will encourage them to explore these avenues.

WHM's MP doesn't have to be far and away better than the others. I don't really claim it needs to. However, if Square is acting under the assumption that WHM MP is ridiculously more abundant than other healer MP, it becomes problematic as we'll be balanced around that and it's not really true in practical scenarios. Are they? I don't really think so - but I'm here to quash the idea that WHM MP is limitless just like I'm here to quash the idea that WHM throughput is insane and unmatched, cause I don't want that feedback going to the developers. They appear to be commonly held beliefs. I don't want that idea about MP economy being something that holds this job back for future design considerations.

It's a real worry of mine that when something is 'fine' that they won't look at it at all. I mean it makes sense - even if there's work that could be done, you spend development resources elsewhere. It's why I'll continue to talk about things to focus on for WHM, though, cause I very much feel it could be better.

I guess what it comes down to is you're on the defense against anyone claiming it's 3.4 and WHMs are underpowered (WHM really isn't), and I'm on the defense of those trying to oversell WHM's capabilities. All in all we probably want similar things and don't want any job to completely overshadow others.

[Miste]

What's your point, then? That everything is fine so we shouldn't talk about anything?

I never said you shouldn't talk just because balance is okay right now, but I am allowed to talk too right...so what is your issue with me asking the person I originally replied to what his point was supposed to be?

I mean talk all you want, but why can I not talk with you or challenge your opinions and ideas with my own? You can't have a discussion with just one person anyway and unfortunately this is a public forum so I am free to hold my opinions up against someone elses if I want to right.

To me the comparisons he was making was like this was 3.4 and AST was trampling WHM. Like I said if I misunderstood him then okay, but he basically made some comparisons that I feel are incorrect as someone who plays both WHM and AST in difficult content.

Talking about the future and WHM and its capabilities is fine, but the issue I have is when people over exaggerate like crazy and make WHM out to be the poor victim of AST squashing it under its boot when that simply is not the case anymore. Using phrases like "it is a double insult to WHM" that AST has something in their toolkit and saying WHM is irrelevant because one 99th percentile AST solo healed O4S...sorry but stuff like that is why I replied to him.

I mean you do realize the reason we do not understand eachother right now is because my response wasn't even towards your post or your opinions. So I don't even know your stance on anything really and the MP thing was because of what the poster I originally replied to said about it. He made it seem like it was an issue so I replied as such.

I am not dismissing things just because "it's not 3.4 anymore". What I am dismissing is the over exaggerations.

Edit: but yeah we probably do think similarly and I am not trying to oversell WHM just that the person I replied to seemed to be very much underselling WHM.

[Xidia]

...I am not trying to oversell WHM just that the person I replied to seemed to be very much underselling WHM.

I personally wish I could see more use from WHM. I -LOVE- them for the new 24-man and dungeons (I mean...6 regens on MT is hilarious and dumb.) and for dungeons they just have good numbers and some nice panic buttons (bene/tetra).

As far as Primals go, I don't feel like WHM brings much to the table. They're good for learning parties, but fall flat when everyone understands mechanics and the like. They get out-healed by SCH and AST.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

It's a real worry of mine that when something is 'fine' that they won't look at it at all. It's why I'll continue to talk about things to focus on for WHM, though, cause I very much feel it could be better.

I really want to bring attention to this. WHM is fine. Perfectly viable and all that.
It doesn't NEED anything, but it could use some improvements here and there.
It's similar to SCH not needing a buff to shield potency. They were perfectly viable mitigators, probably more sought after then AST even with their stronger base shielding.
Nonetheless they received a buff, because they felt it could see some improvement. It's the same case with WHM. As long as it stays balanced, I don't see where there can't be small additions to their kit.

I don't exactly get why it's so widespread to instantly shoot down anything concerning WHM. Even back in 3.4, there were constant "WHM is fine" talk.
I must be missing something.

[Cynfael]

I don't exactly get why it's so widespread to instantly shoot down anything concerning WHM. Even back in 3.4, there were constant "WHM is fine" talk.
I must be missing something.

I think it's more of a reaction to persistent and somewhat overblown WHM doom-and-gloom rants. I've long agreed with the idea that WHM needed improvements to further carve out its niche (well, since AST was born and immediately began to encroach even harder on WHM than on SCH), but a lot of these discussions escalate past discussion of reasonable changes to "WHM is dead! No, it's fine! Dead! Fine! Dead!" I feel like it's almost automatic that WHM discussion threads are perceived as absolutes even when they don't need to be.

[Miste]

As far as Primals go, I don't feel like WHM brings much to the table. They're good for learning parties, but fall flat when everyone understands mechanics and the like. They get out-healed by SCH and AST.

I swap between AST and WHM for Shinryu EX farms and I personally have not seen what you are saying here.

They are both basically the same item level (AST 340, WHM 339) and I usually end up with more healing on my WHM than my Diurnal AST. This is also a point to highlight that I am overall more comfortable on AST having more experience on it in general so even with that comfort level I still usually outheal my Diurnal AST with my WHM.

AST just has less direct DPS but I do get to use cards (at least when RNG doesn't screw me over and I keep sleeve drawing double Spire -_-)

I've seen some amazing WHMs in Shinryu too when I have to go Nocturnal AST. They are pushing way more healing than my Diurnal and even more direct DPS than I do on my WHM just because they are more experienced with the fight and I guess aren't worried about mistakes. I tend to be more cautious in Shinryu since people make mistakes often sometimes and healers sometimes have to save them from death or also raise people quickly.

It doesn't NEED anything, but it could use some improvements here and there.

I don't exactly get why it's so widespread to instantly shoot down anything concerning WHM. Even back in 3.4, there were constant "WHM is fine" talk.
I must be missing something.

Like Cynfael said it is because of overblown WHM doom and gloom rants.

Personally if people want something for WHM or improvements I don't even care really as long as it isn't utterly balance destroying. it is only when they try to make over exaggerations, biased claims, or victimize WHM in order to claim their ideas must be heard and must be implemented that I just stop listening and will start dismissing things and like I said I dismiss the over exaggerations, and not necessarily the ideas.

Discussing or asking for stuff for WHM or improvements to WHM = Awesome! That's what the forum is here for: discussions

Discussing or asking for stuff for WHM or improvements and using over exaggerations, victimizing, and biased claims to argue why WHM wants or needs these improvements = No

In 3.4 WHM complaints were totally 100% justified. Now though? The over exaggerations, victimizing, and biased claims just gets silly.