A Modest Thought

[SendohJin]

You forgot that they also failed in giving us trials for the HW Relic weapons which was an aspect I found super cool about the ARR weapons even though I wasn't around for the release of it but instead they tied it to FATES. If by Hunts you're referring to Fox Girl and Ixion we had those in ARR in the form of Odin and Behemoth and didn't have an equivalent in SB besides Couerlregina I think.

They didn't fail to give us trials for HW Relic. Hydra and Chimera launched with base 2.0. 2.0 is the base game it's always going to be bigger than any expansion. 3.0 and 4.0 never was going to give us as much stuff as 2.0 did.

2.0 was made when the game wasn't live and they didn't have to create updates and make 2.0 at the same time. 3.0 and 4.0 was made while the 2.x and 3.x updates were getting made at the same time. the actual Relic quest is the quest that started in the patches, the 2.x series and 3.x series of those quests are basically the same.

I meant hunts as in B, A, S Rank mobs, they didn't launch with 2.0 but both expansions launched with those out of the box. fyi there's a super FATE in Azys Lla nobody does that's on the same level as Coeurlregina, we didn't lose one the rewards just really suck.

Ok they probably used the resources from that one extra dungeon in HW to develop PotD and Aquapolis, this is a probable and fair point. I'm fine with this because I love Aquapolis and Canals and PotD past floor 100 is fun and challenging. So if the core idea behind Deep Dungeon and Treasure Dungeons as well as the teams have been developed and we haven't gotten much of an idea of what's in store for us in the future what justifies us losing one extra dungeon in SB?

this is the biggest problem with people like you. it's the worse of middle management mentalities in any business. having an idea is not the same as doing the work. having the core idea is nice, but someone had to make Uznair and the Hidden Canals. someone is currently developing the SB version of PotD, it doesn't just magically appear because the idea is there. if you want these recreated / expanded upon and you expect a third level of new stuff on top of that something has to give (this time we got Ultimate Savage, Squadron AI). it's only one Hard mode dungeon every odd patch, even patches we're still supposed to get two.

[hellmach]

They didn't fail to give us trials for HW Relic. Hydra and Chimera launched with base 2.0. 2.0 is the base game it's always going to be bigger than any expansion. 3.0 and 4.0 never was going to give us as much stuff as 2.0 did.

2.0 was made when the game wasn't live and they didn't have to create updates and make 2.0 at the same time. 3.0 and 4.0 was made while the 2.x and 3.x updates were getting made at the same time. the actual Relic quest is the quest that started in the patches, the 2.x series and 3.x series of those quests are basically the same.

I meant hunts as in B, A, S Rank mobs, they didn't launch with 2.0 but both expansions launched with those out of the box. fyi there's a super FATE in Azys Lla nobody does that's on the same level as Coeurlregina, we didn't lose one the rewards just really suck.



this is the biggest problem with people like you. it's the worse of middle management mentalities in any business. having an idea is not the same as doing the work. having the core idea is nice, but someone had to make Uznair and the Hidden Canals. someone is currently developing the SB version of PotD, it doesn't just magically appear because the idea is there. if you want these recreated / expanded upon and you expect a third level of new stuff on top of that something has to give (this time we got Ultimate Savage, Squadron AI). it's only one Hard mode dungeon every odd patch, even patches we're still supposed to get two.

Ad hominem aside...

The first step of HW relic was tied to fates. Not the HM trials like the ARR one which is funner... albeit brutal from what I heard (Titan HM).

Uznair is a reskin of Aquapolis with the same music. The new Deep Dungeon will probably be a reskin of PotD. The coding for the fundamental way the content works is there. All they need to do is update the enemies and visuals to match the theme of the area. No it doesn't magically appear and nobody can be stupid enough to claim that but if you think SE isn't standardizing some of the assets from the HW counterparts in order to facilitate the process of developing further map dungeons and Deep Dungeons in the future.

[Andres_Lonegrief]

What a nice post, for once. I can relate and agree with everything you wrote. FFXIV restored my faith in the brand and in the company, which was nice while it lasted.

What are SE plans? None, I guess. Simply put, why should they care about this or change something if the current approach ensures subscriptions and revenues (cash shop)?

Quality and quantity are being reduced everywhere: dungeons, content design, gear design. The amount of recoloured and recycled armour is so evident that should worry even the most ardent glamour enthusiast. (if this is not an evidence, what about the trailers lenght? 4minutes for 4.1 vs 8mins for HW's and ARR's patchtes)

They just failed at "educating" the community and progressively lowered the bar instead of encouraging them towards inprovement.

The only thing we are constantly mindlessly insistently and frustratingly pushed toward is PVP. Cool mounts, minions, the few decent looking armors .. everything is locked behind PVP. What disturbs me most is that even if people do play that content for the rewards (or for exp), they are doing it passively and even PvPers complain about this but SE simply doesn't care or doesn't see this and I don't know which option is worse.

For PVE, now everybody has direct access to the next extreme primal even if they haven't cleared the previous one. And the same applies to raids (you could access to A5S even without having a single clear of A4S). A part from affecting the clearing rate (and training' s enjoyability) penalizing players without a static, this has totally removed any sense of progression. What's the point in farming tomestones for armors or training for a specific primal if I have direct access to everything?

8men raids are entertaining but that's it. Aside from omega, there aren't many other challenges out there. There isn't a single content designed for mid-core players. Hard-cores will have ultimate coil and I am super happy for them, But that's what we got after years of complaints.

Another thing that bugs me is that each and every single time they come up with something good or different, the idea is awesome but poorly implemented.
Plans 100-200 of PotD had the same fate.
Why should I clear every time 50 floors with a pre made party in order to access it? What kind of fun should I get from doing 1-50? This totally killed many players' will to try 100-200 again in case of party wipes. I just wish there was a single dungeon per patch as difficult as PotD's late floors.

Still, if the top concerns for the majority of the players here is Edda' s outfit or butt-sliders or playable music instruments and these are the issues being addressed I can only accept that the game is not designed for me, play as long as there is a tiny bit of content that i can enjoy or as long as my friends play as well and then leave until I have accumulated so many things to catch up with that FFXIV will keep me busy for another coulple of weeks.

[Connor]

I completely agree OP but these types of thread always fall upon deaf ears

[hellmach]

I completely agree OP but these types of thread always fall upon deaf ears

I just want to talk about it with people and hopefully get SE's attention about it.

[Palamouche]

I still feel like Miste has a point.

Let me explain you why, let's say that we take onto your gearing structure and add more middle man into the process.

Which is going to look something like this :

* Entry (Expert/Tomestone 315)
* New middle man (335)
* EX Primals (With added loots to cover each slots - 355)
* Savage/Ultimate (375)

Now we've solved the problem that you've got with progression, since you will need to grind onto each tier before moving onto the next (For most of the player base that is) but you're not addressing your other concern, which is gear revelance and I'll try to adress why (And even come up with possible solutions !), since you want an never ending incentive to actually gear up, let's say that the new shiny patch is out, let's call it 4.2 for now.

Here are what the rewards will look like (Arbitrary still) :

* Entry (Expert/Tomestone 375)
* New middle man (395)
* EX Primals (415)
* Savage/Ultimate (435)

Which would end up with the same problem that we have now.

Alternatively, I know you could choose to lower the tiers between each (+20 instead of "starting from scratch") but, if you're only going to tackle one of those difficulties in mind, it would also lower the gap of what you're winning between each tier, which would also lower the incentive to tackle upon said difficulty (unless you want to grind all those stairs ), someone (Entry runner) that was going to be trying to do the "New middle man" from my former example could actually ask "Why ?" since he already know that it'll be outdated in 3/6 months time.

There's an interesting argument to be made there by saying that it would encourage "improvement" by itself by putting artificial walls (a.k.a ilevel) in front of it.

By the end of an expansion, your entry ilevel could be at the level of your former savage ilevel which would get reset as soon as you put a foot into the new expansion, getting me to my conclusion (and personal opinion) that fun should be put first and foremost, my entire post isn't going to address everything possible outcomes that would come with such a change (such as "Why should I have these tomestones now?" or "Where does the crafting gear fits in there ?") and I kind of admit that I kinda "hi-jacked" my personal purpose upon writing it (Bad, I know, I know...).

P.S: I actually like the current system more since it doesn't deny me from trying any of the content without grinding all of those artificial stairs, so to speak.

Tl;dr If you actually don't like the content that you're currently doing for what it is there's always going to be a moment where your gear get outdated, it's just a matter of time. (Even in a vertical (or horizontal ?) progression game ? I think that's how you guys calls it.)

[hellmach]

snip

That's not reflective of the system we've had to my knowledge since HW. This is more like it:

Entry is 290 not including accessories
First 3 level 70 dungeons drop 300 gear.
Verity- 310 including weapon
315 is Skallic gear introduced in 3.1
Omega Normal-320 and Susano gives you a 320 weapon and
Creation Tomes/24 Man 330... 330 weapon is locked behind doing O4 normal weekly where you need 7 weeks to get your weapon. You can get one Savage 340 upgrade material per week by doing the 24 man content in 3.1
Shinryu 335 Weapon
Savage 340 and a 345 weapon. You can upgrade tomestone gear with material drops you get here weekly.

Sample Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3&category3=34
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...=1&category3=2

I didn't include crafted. This is the pattern every patch to my knowledge since 3.0. How does this promote a feeling of progression when more difficult content, that intuitively should give you better rewards, only gives a slight advantage against just grinding tomestones in the case of Shinryu or before creation Susano? I also wouldn't mind tomestone grinding if the dungeons actually felt challenging, which they don't (I'm not speaking for Lost Canals because I haven't done it), and I had the feeling that I earned them, which I don't. Hardcore players can get their BiS and casuals can get high ilevels with low effort but where's the middle ground for midcore players who may not be able to do Savage or don't have time to do it but want that feeling of progression when the mid core rewards are barely better then the casual ones?

I can't say you even put forth anything valid because your very sample system isn't reflective of the one we're using now as I proved and it seems as if you think progression... actually getting more powerful in an RPG through challenge is considered "grinding artificial stairs" which sounds outrageous to anyone who's played RPGs. By your logic the grinding of say Sphere points in FF 10, Experience in 9,7,5,6 or earning gear through defeating powerful bosses, finding it in chests or doing exceptional feats like beating a side quest tournament arena are "artificial" stairs. I don't want to assume the worst case scenario because I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it sounds like you're ok with getting rewarded for barely anything. If that's the case, and excuse my French, how the fuck would that be good game design?

[Palamouche]

Snip

It was never made to be reflective of the system that we're currently using, it is actually a proposed change that would fit within your own desired gearing structure, which is to me more beneficial to the topic at hand, we're discussing (at least it seems) of what problems the current core is encountering, I'm sure you can built something out of what you've said by adding to what I've said.

Secondly, no matter what kind of feelings you're getting out of beating one of those secret boss, in a game like FFXIV or any MMO-RPG for that matters, you're indeed getting more gear to be able to do more of them, if gear wasn't a point that you seemed so adamant to (in first the place) you would not have much problems with the current structure, don't you ? (On that matter, being able to defeat a boss is actually a progression in itself and that's what you could count as reward, what you need to do to get there is what I effectively call "artificial" stairs.)

Lastly, I never said that I was ok by getting rewarded for barely anything, in fact it would be the opposite, I would be ok with not getting rewarded even by doing my best, which is what I aim to be most of the time and this is what I get satisfaction from (Personal improvement).

I feel a little bit "saddened" that what you took of my post were invalided as soon as they were not concording to the current design since you're in for a change and that's what I'm trying to talk about here, what would be the cons/pros about it instead of comparing apple to orange.

[MerleSirlos]

I think I understand your point, but I feel like it's just that time did his thing. You got older, maybe your taste slightly changed, maybe you got very familiar with the core system too fast and are getting bored of the game already and/or maybe the pace of the patches/game doesn't suit you anymore. It is something that is bound to happen but takes different time for each of us.
And I always feels a bit sad when you realise you don't enjoy a game as you used to after a while.

But it also has to do with how games evolved with time. 15-20 years ago in MMORPGs, it used to take months if not years to reach max level, and after that you had to spend at least the same amount of time to get all the pieces of the gear you wanted. You also didn't have access to as much information as we have now on the internet. It was common to see some strange build appear with more or less success on specific scenarios. (how much fun I had with my battle priest where the goal was to drag the fight to kill the opponent slowly while healing myself instead of the usual full magic attack ones where it was only a race on who can kill the other faster)
Time passed, and the leveling process was done shorter and shorter as the majority of players found it boring (which in most game was the case for me too but the ones i enjoyed the most were actually the ones with the more interesting leveling process). The process to get the equipment was also shortened after that, so lifetime of games end up shorter as people want more things faster.
At the same time, solo game went from games where we had a clear linear path from A to B to a more broad system like open world where we got rid of B but you can do whatever you want. B technically still exist as it's now up to the player to define where it is now.
That last part is slowly making its way to MMOs too. We want more different things to do and we also want to do them faster.
Of course that is not the case for everyone. and we live in a time with a huge market, so most of the time it ends up as simply finding the game that suits you better (which is what the "go play something else" should refer to and are sometimes a bit too rude).
It is understandable to want to change something you don't like, but there are also other who like what you don't like. So in the end it's up to the dev to choose which side the want to focus first (because it's not impossible for them to come with something that can satisfy both sometimes).