Fixing Dark Knight, Properly

[Crater]

It's a DPS loss at the second use -because the first use is a DPS gain-.

3.x Butcher's Block

Sorry but you really don't understand what you're talking about.

[Kabooa]

If you don't understand this, that's not on me, but I'll try regardless.

The argument is that 1800 MP for 40 Blood is a DPS gain, while 2400MP for 50 is dps neutral.

If the first use nets you, I don't know, net potency bonus of +70, then the second use netting you +0 is a loss. It's only neutral when you look at Dark Knight now (which is neutral, a +/- 6 or so calculation). But the moment TBN swaps to this new model, every use after Despair 1 is a DPS loss because the first use is a gain. It could be neutral from Despair 2-99 but it'd still be a loss because Despair 1 is a gain.

[SyzzleSpark]

while 2400MP for 50 is dps neutral.

Make up your mind, something that is neutral cannot also be a loss. Its not a loss until it is ACTUALLY a loss, which is upon the 3rd use.

If 2400MP for 50 Blood is DPS neutral, that means it is FREE. Something valuable going from being profitable to merely FREE is categorically and intrinsically impossible to classify as a loss. Within that 15s window, that's a second, extra 20% HP shield, just as a freebee.

If WAR could Fell Cleave and get back 10 Beast Gauge, you're telling me that they would not Fell Cleave a second time if it gave them zero, even in spite of not costing 50?

[Crater]

The argument is that 1800 MP for 40 Blood is a DPS gain, while 2400MP for 50 is dps neutral.

This is true because the standard for the exchange rate of MP to potency is set by Dark Arts (and basically always will be as long as Dark Arts functions the way it does on Syphon Strike, Souleater, and Bloodspiller).

We don't say that using Dark Arts on Souleater for 140 potency is a DPS loss because you can get 280 potency out of it by using it on Carve and Spit - the base exchange rate is set by DA on your weaponskills because that's where you can always dump your MP - using it on anything else is constrained by cooldowns.


People still use DA on Power Slash and Dark Mind when it seems advantageous to do so. People still hold Plunge for gap-closing even though it's a DPS loss to keep it off cooldown. People still prioritize using Sheltron to block threatening cleaves and tankbusters over blowing it on an auto-attack just to trigger Shield Swipe ASAP. People still use weaponskills that generate BG while they sit at 100 BG if they don't feel like they can spend any and be back at 100 in time for an IR/Berserk. Scholars still use Aetherflow on Lustrate, Indomitability, Excog and Sacred Soil, even though every one is a loss of 150 potency from not using Energy Drain.

All of these things are "DPS losses" that can be turned into overall DPS gains, for either the player themself, or the party as a whole.

This stupid fixation on "Wahh, nobody will ever use it, it's a minor short-term DPS loss and therefore is always a punishment" is short-sighted and ignores the way that the game is has always been actually played.

[Kabooa]

All of these things are "DPS losses" that can be turned into overall DPS gains, for either the player themself, or the party as a whole.
.

That's not really a DPS loss, is it then?

People use TBN now because it's neutral and provides mitigation. There is no pressure to use it willy nilly because it isn't part of the DPS rat race. Putting more weight on this ability honestly seems like the opposite of what people have wanted. If you don't want TBN to be utilized as a DPS tool or viewed as one, then keep it neutral at stage one (or don't change it all, right?)

You can fill in the gaps for on demand mitigation at the cost of DPS in your stance weapon system. It is honestly the most exciting part of your rework, and yet you spent the least amount of time there doing effectively nothing with it.

[Crater]

That's not really a DPS loss, is it then?

Are you not able to see that it would also not be a loss to use a second (potentially even a third) TBN, in the cases where people would actually use it?

[MagiusNecros]

TBN is only a loss if the shield doesn't break as far as I am concerned. And I imagine TBN is probably the most exciting thing about DRK considering everything else is fucking awful.

[DaulBan]

I feel like a lot of these posts could be shored up by saying 'make tbn cost 1/2 a DA and make DP cost 1/2 a DA' and, I don't know, make Darkside 24% if you want some extra damage.

[Kabooa]

Are you not able to see that it would also not be a loss to use a second (potentially even a third) TBN, in the cases where people would actually use it?

Now that I'm more awake, I did some quickie head and napkin math and facepalmed. You and I aren't going to agree on this, but the short version from my now more awake side of the yard is that it's adding a needless layer, to the point where it might as well not even change. But, you are right in saying that for most relevant cases, nothing changes. I concede that.

I find issue with other scenarios as we were mainly focused on single target bosses, but those other scenarios tend to only exist in Dungeons, Fates, and some transition phases. Small enough a size to let the Dark Knight feel very good while not impacting the overall balance scene.

[Awful]

I love the proposed changes other than Bloodspiller, just doing more damage instead of what changes you opted for other than that amazing and I hope SE reads these threads as there's some amazing ideas.