Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

[Vahlnir]

The reward is the challenge, and to test your abilities as a player. A gear reward would be nice (as a progression alternative to savage), but it is far from required. Players—especially Final Fantasy players, given the lack of reward from super bosses in the single-player installments—do not need any other carrot.

That didn't work out too well for Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage) when it was new. Sure, people did it for bragging rights, but those were a very small portion of the player base. The rewards didn't justify the difficulty. So, they would need to add incentive to get people to run dungeons on higher difficulties...like they did with Savage in HW and SB, and soon to be Ultimate. It could be something along the lines of mounts, minions, exclusive glamour sets, etc when it comes to dungeons, seeing as the gear rewards are either from tome gear or raiding.

[Eli85]

Snip.

You do realize that any content with any level of difficulty is for the top 1%, right? If the developers only put in content that most of the player base could do, you could do nothing but auto-attack to complete the content.

Also, if you honestly think that completion percentages are that much higher for savage in HW and SB, I got news for ya, it really isn't. The players who do savage do not do it for mounts, minions, glamour, or gear. It's for the challenge, period. Challenge is the ONLY reward required for this higher level content.

[Vahlnir]

-snip-

Ex primals are challenging, but not meant for just 1% of the player base. I also never said that about raiders either. In fact, I stated that some did the first Savage mode for the bragging rights...because that's all there was to it. More people got involved in HW, so yes there was a bit higher of a completion rate. Gordias was pretty low, Midas was slightly better, but Creator had a bit higher of a clear rate than the rest since it was more accessible. Raiders no doubt do it for the challenge, but there's also some incentive to keep going, and you might want to prepare yourself...there's a mount in it for them, as well. One that only they have access to.

[NocturniaUzuki]

The players who do savage do not do it for mounts, minions, glamour, or gear. It's for the challenge, period. Challenge is the ONLY reward required for this higher level content.

This is false.

While I'm sure players do it partially for the challenge, they only do so in the context of gaining prestige within the playerbase, rather than actually caring about challenging themselves. Meanwhile, the true motivator behind doing Savage content is completion-ism and material reward. Most players, regrettably, do no do things "just for the heck of it" as someone posted above this. If they did, then old content would be alive and thriving, and my Eccentricity guild Discord for finding parties for unconventional challenges and fun would never have been made, because it would be the norm in-game.

[Penthea]

This is false.

While I'm sure players do it partially for the challenge, they only do so in the context of gaining prestige within the playerbase, rather than actually caring about challenging themselves. Meanwhile, the true motivator behind doing Savage content is completion-ism and material reward. Most players, regrettably, do no do things "just for the heck of it" as someone posted above this. If they did, then old content would be alive and thriving, and my Eccentricity guild Discord for finding parties for unconventional challenges and fun would never have been made, because it would be the norm in-game.

What a blanket statement this is. I know plenty of people who do savage for the challenge and mostly view gear as a means to an end rather than to pose in something prestigious.

The reason why old content isn't as alive is because it's old. People have done it before, class balance has since changed so it's not like how it was at launch and the introduction of new classes changes it even more. Old content is out of date so it is prone to being badly balanced. Current content is designed for the current state of the game, this is one of the reasons why it is more desirable.

Yes the players that you speak of definitely exist but I think you greatly overestimate how many raiders are like that.

[NocturniaUzuki]

What a blanket statement this is. I know plenty of people who do savage for the challenge and mostly view gear as a means to an end rather than to pose in something prestigious.

The reason why old content isn't as alive is because it's old. People have done it before, class balance has since changed so it's not like how it was at launch and the introduction of new classes changes it even more. Old content is out of date so it is prone to being badly balanced. Current content is designed for the current state of the game, this is one of the reasons why it is more desirable.

Yes the players that you speak of definitely exist but I think you greatly overestimate how many raiders are like that.

First of all, it wasn't a blanket statement, since I said "most" not "all".

Also, it's not just because it's old. I'm sure the really veteran players may find it boring because it's old, but a huge portion of the playerbase has joined since Heavensward or Stormblood. And to them, old ARR content or HW content is not just boring because it's old. It's boring because there's no material reward worth getting from them, besides mounts, which people just unsync spam for.

I do think the class balance changes are an issue that affects their popularity, although the old content is still fun and a challenge despite that. I would much prefer to see a system that accounts for old content more often when they update.

[Penthea]

First of all, it wasn't a blanket statement, since I said "most" not "all".

Your post made it seem like you thought little other existed.

Also, it's not just because it's old. I'm sure the really veteran players may find it boring because it's old, but a huge portion of the playerbase has joined since Heavensward or Stormblood.

I think you're forgetting that the majority of active raiders are not new players. They would have done at least some of the old content before. Especially hardcore raiders, you won't find many players who only recently lost their sprout icon in those teams.

I do think the class balance changes are an issue that affects their popularity, although the old content is still fun and a challenge despite that. I would much prefer to see a system that accounts for old content more often when they update.

Every class has had their abilities pruned so that we don't suffer from spell bloat at lvl 70. Players syncing down to 60 or 50 may actually lack some of the tools they need to do that content because the level they're gained at has now changed. Similarly they may have access to abilities that didn't exist when that content was current which may give them an advantage. The challenge feels cheapened if you know you have a kit that is not designed for what you're doing.

Most players would prefer the devs to pour their resources into improving current content, new content or older content that is still heavily in use. The old savage/ex raids do not qualify for that.

[NocturniaUzuki]

Well, I think you're getting caught up a bit too much on the minority. Obviously, hardcores are usually not fresh players. Then again, as a fairly hardcore player myself, I joined at Far Edge of Fate, and STILL haven't actually unlocked Final Coil or any of the Savage Coils because I refuse to unsync them and finding a party otherwise is hell. Active end-game raiders are probably a majority of long-time players, and a not insignificant number of newer players. Once you get into casual, which makes up a vast portion of the playerbase, then old content is not so "old" anymore.

The class changes do affect old content, but they it make the content too easy, you can make it harder yourself (MinIL, or MinIL undersized). If they make it "impossible" the game would be broken and SQEX would have to fix it. If they make it significantly harder, maybe you'll have to take some unconventional approaches to clearing it. But most stuff can be done in strange, unintended ways in this game. For example you can 4-man Ultima's Bane with no tank on Synced. If they let us customize the sync level, it could be done at a significantly lower item level as well.