Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

[Eli85]

Snip.

The reward is the challenge, and to test your abilities as a player. A gear reward would be nice (as a progression alternative to savage), but it is far from required. Players—especially Final Fantasy players, given the lack of reward from super bosses in the single-player installments—do not need any other carrot.

Snip.

You do realize that doing a dungeon undersized and / or undergeared does not make it harder? The boss and trash damage is still the same, as is health and stats. For players who do not suck (avoids the avoidable mechanics) doing it in such a way simply makes it longer, not harder. On the other hand, if you scale the dungeons, then everything hits harder; so those boss attacks that the healer ignores now must be attended to, making their job much more difficult.

As for tomestones versus gear, I'd rather be gear farming (like the extreme primals) where I know that every kill I come closer to what I want, instead of farming easy content to cap out on a currency that I'll get one thing 2-3 weeks from now, regardless of how well I play.

Snip.

The only people who would benefit from scaling difficulty dungeons in XIV are recent WoW players? So how do players playing WoW benefit at all from something new in XIV?

Your ridiculousness aside, no, it's not just "recent WoW players" benefit from it. Players (in XIV) who are looking for a hard challenge (there is a reason we're getting Super Savage / Ultimate Series) have yet another outlet for it. I mean, they could still attach creation tomestones to it (more than what the normal difficulty gives, obviously), and I would love to do a much harder version for a greater reward.

To you I repeat this firmly: just because WoW has a system does not mean it is a terribly idea to be used outside of WoW. I'm an ex-WoW player, and there are several things I never want to see from WoW in this game, but that does not mean I'll willfully ignore the real positive systems that could be of great value here.

So just stop the hate.

[Vahlnir]

The reward is the challenge, and to test your abilities as a player. A gear reward would be nice (as a progression alternative to savage), but it is far from required. Players—especially Final Fantasy players, given the lack of reward from super bosses in the single-player installments—do not need any other carrot.

That didn't work out too well for Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage) when it was new. Sure, people did it for bragging rights, but those were a very small portion of the player base. The rewards didn't justify the difficulty. So, they would need to add incentive to get people to run dungeons on higher difficulties...like they did with Savage in HW and SB, and soon to be Ultimate. It could be something along the lines of mounts, minions, exclusive glamour sets, etc when it comes to dungeons, seeing as the gear rewards are either from tome gear or raiding.

[Eli85]

Snip.

You do realize that any content with any level of difficulty is for the top 1%, right? If the developers only put in content that most of the player base could do, you could do nothing but auto-attack to complete the content.

Also, if you honestly think that completion percentages are that much higher for savage in HW and SB, I got news for ya, it really isn't. The players who do savage do not do it for mounts, minions, glamour, or gear. It's for the challenge, period. Challenge is the ONLY reward required for this higher level content.

[Vahlnir]

-snip-

Ex primals are challenging, but not meant for just 1% of the player base. I also never said that about raiders either. In fact, I stated that some did the first Savage mode for the bragging rights...because that's all there was to it. More people got involved in HW, so yes there was a bit higher of a completion rate. Gordias was pretty low, Midas was slightly better, but Creator had a bit higher of a clear rate than the rest since it was more accessible. Raiders no doubt do it for the challenge, but there's also some incentive to keep going, and you might want to prepare yourself...there's a mount in it for them, as well. One that only they have access to.

[NocturniaUzuki]

The players who do savage do not do it for mounts, minions, glamour, or gear. It's for the challenge, period. Challenge is the ONLY reward required for this higher level content.

This is false.

While I'm sure players do it partially for the challenge, they only do so in the context of gaining prestige within the playerbase, rather than actually caring about challenging themselves. Meanwhile, the true motivator behind doing Savage content is completion-ism and material reward. Most players, regrettably, do no do things "just for the heck of it" as someone posted above this. If they did, then old content would be alive and thriving, and my Eccentricity guild Discord for finding parties for unconventional challenges and fun would never have been made, because it would be the norm in-game.

[Penthea]

This is false.

While I'm sure players do it partially for the challenge, they only do so in the context of gaining prestige within the playerbase, rather than actually caring about challenging themselves. Meanwhile, the true motivator behind doing Savage content is completion-ism and material reward. Most players, regrettably, do no do things "just for the heck of it" as someone posted above this. If they did, then old content would be alive and thriving, and my Eccentricity guild Discord for finding parties for unconventional challenges and fun would never have been made, because it would be the norm in-game.

What a blanket statement this is. I know plenty of people who do savage for the challenge and mostly view gear as a means to an end rather than to pose in something prestigious.

The reason why old content isn't as alive is because it's old. People have done it before, class balance has since changed so it's not like how it was at launch and the introduction of new classes changes it even more. Old content is out of date so it is prone to being badly balanced. Current content is designed for the current state of the game, this is one of the reasons why it is more desirable.

Yes the players that you speak of definitely exist but I think you greatly overestimate how many raiders are like that.

[NocturniaUzuki]

What a blanket statement this is. I know plenty of people who do savage for the challenge and mostly view gear as a means to an end rather than to pose in something prestigious.

The reason why old content isn't as alive is because it's old. People have done it before, class balance has since changed so it's not like how it was at launch and the introduction of new classes changes it even more. Old content is out of date so it is prone to being badly balanced. Current content is designed for the current state of the game, this is one of the reasons why it is more desirable.

Yes the players that you speak of definitely exist but I think you greatly overestimate how many raiders are like that.

First of all, it wasn't a blanket statement, since I said "most" not "all".

Also, it's not just because it's old. I'm sure the really veteran players may find it boring because it's old, but a huge portion of the playerbase has joined since Heavensward or Stormblood. And to them, old ARR content or HW content is not just boring because it's old. It's boring because there's no material reward worth getting from them, besides mounts, which people just unsync spam for.

I do think the class balance changes are an issue that affects their popularity, although the old content is still fun and a challenge despite that. I would much prefer to see a system that accounts for old content more often when they update.

[Penthea]

First of all, it wasn't a blanket statement, since I said "most" not "all".

Your post made it seem like you thought little other existed.

Also, it's not just because it's old. I'm sure the really veteran players may find it boring because it's old, but a huge portion of the playerbase has joined since Heavensward or Stormblood.

I think you're forgetting that the majority of active raiders are not new players. They would have done at least some of the old content before. Especially hardcore raiders, you won't find many players who only recently lost their sprout icon in those teams.

I do think the class balance changes are an issue that affects their popularity, although the old content is still fun and a challenge despite that. I would much prefer to see a system that accounts for old content more often when they update.

Every class has had their abilities pruned so that we don't suffer from spell bloat at lvl 70. Players syncing down to 60 or 50 may actually lack some of the tools they need to do that content because the level they're gained at has now changed. Similarly they may have access to abilities that didn't exist when that content was current which may give them an advantage. The challenge feels cheapened if you know you have a kit that is not designed for what you're doing.

Most players would prefer the devs to pour their resources into improving current content, new content or older content that is still heavily in use. The old savage/ex raids do not qualify for that.

[BigRed5392]

So just stop the hate.

i have no hate, I played WoW and found it to be too easy. I also am seeing the op posting all request, that are stuff from WoW with the premise that "wow is better ff14 is dull"

this was a suggestion not long again, no one seems to want it. also "wow players who are used to it..." just means those who play WoW and understand the system, again no hate.

stop digging up drama when there is none to be had.

also news flash, people play content to be rewarded.... when coil savage was out people hated the lack of reward. People hated the alexander normal/savage modes asking for the savage modes to give more rewards outside of reskins. may want to pay attention. People do not do content for the heck of it...

[Eli85]

nor does it benefit anyone outside recent WoW players who are used to it.

That is what you said. Difficulty scalable dungeon tech does not benefit any recent WoW players. Truthfully, it would benefit XIV players substantively.

also news flash, people play content to be rewarded.... when coil savage was out people hated the lack of reward. People hated the alexander normal/savage modes asking for the savage modes to give more rewards outside of reskins. may want to pay attention. People do not do content for the heck of it...

Bolded is absolutely false. In the context of savage raiding, gear is a means to a goal. Raiders care about gear—including world first raiders—because at some point that gear will be needed to successfully overcome the challenge, but it is not the reason to do the content. Raiders do savage for the challenge, period. If the entire expansion's raid content could be cleared without gear, participation would remain the same. It's not the reason for participation.

You also know for a fact that "people" as you put it hated Alexander because of reasons? Funny how a lot of people enjoyed Alexander...

Snip.

Sorry but you're absolutely wrong. You are thinking of stereotypes long discarded. Raiding for prestige? Do you honestly think anyone who successfully completes content cares what people outside of their statics / FCs thinks of them? They don't. The only people who seemingly care are the try hards who think what someone does or does not do—that does not affect them in any way—actually matters (and it doesn't matter).

Raiders do it for the challenge and, as you said, complete the content. Old content isn't done because it's old, been done so many times, and they want something new.

Snip.

Once again, in your example, it is longer, not harder. When you take your gear off, the boss does the exact same damage and has the exact same health. The only thing different is that you are statistically weaker, and thus, the fight takes longer.

What am I after? Actual harder dungeons, and not simply longer dungeons, as you are suggesting.

Snip.

Mythic+ isn't perfect and there are issues. The weekly cache is an issue (thus why people stop at +10 / +15). Exploiting the system in its infancy for titanforging is an issue (and as an aside, titanforging is also is an issue).

But does this mean the good of the system should be discarded?

No, such absolutist thinking has no place.