Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

[Felis]

You do realize that doing a dungeon undersized and / or undergeared does not make it harder? The boss and trash damage is still the same, as is health and stats.

lower ilevel -> less def -> enemies hit harder
also: longer time to kill enemies -> enemies have the chance to do their mechanics before they die

[Voltyblast]

The reason dungeons are easy is because:
(1) Most of them are story dungeons. People will be doing them with low lvl gear. It has to be easy enough for 1st timers.
(2) Daily Roulettes. Now imagine doing a very long and somewhat hard dungeon every day. Not many will like this, especially those that farm them for glamour.

1) Even more reasons to have different layers for different difficulties: if <nasal voice> story dungeons <end nasal voice> require you to have minimum ilvl, then give us different layers with different requirements. Variation is the spice of life, didn't you know that?
2) If you don't know, Mythic dungeons in wow CANNOT be queued like normal: you need to make up a group manually and go to the dungeon entrance like when you did in vanilla. So those who wanna do daily rouletes will do like always, while those who want a harder challenge will have to actually commit and make a group from zero. I know the idea of working in a group is incredibly scary but if people did it in vanilla, we can do it now.

And one more thing: 335 would be a good incentive actually because not everyone will bother with Savage since it's a lot of time commitment and not everyone is a raider (I used to be one and I don't want to raid anymore: it's too much time spent in something with very low return). Giving gear is absolutely a priority to incentivize players to do more content and just play the game and to be honest, I point the finger at the bad gear balance: 340 it's just too low ilvl for a raid and instead it should be way higher (350-360 at the very least) and everything else should be obtainable via dungeons or even primals (yeah...what about giving primal armors too?)

But if it is as you say, then the game will stagnate and more dead dungeons will come in the years to come.

[JunseiKei]

We already have this spread throughout the game, just not on specifically dungeons alone.

Easy: Job trials, story primals, dungeons (leveling), PotD 1-100.
Medium/ Normal: Dungeons (expert), PotD 101-200.
Above Normal: 24 man raid, normal/story mode raids
Hard: Extreme trials, savage raids.

PotD upper floors is namely learning the gimmick; learn it and its actually just as easy as story quests.

The gap in between each is really small, too, in my opinion. The only things that really change are how much a failed mechanic punishes you (IE: normal omega = vul stack and live-able damage with mitigation; savage = death or vul stack with enough damage to kill you) and how well you can maintain optimal DPS while completing mechanics. I have no idea why people want the same exact fights, but harder. That sounds boring as heck (which primals are a pretty huge offender to this statement).

Bolded is absolutely false. In the context of savage raiding, gear is a means to a goal. Raiders care about gear—including world first raiders—because at some point that gear will be needed to successfully overcome the challenge, but it is not the reason to do the content. Raiders do savage for the challenge, period. If the entire expansion's raid content could be cleared without gear, participation would remain the same. It's not the reason for participation.

They aren't completely wrong. The Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage) that they referred to went largely ignored because it offered absolutely nothing unique. All you gained for completing it was titles tied to each floor- all the drops were the same as those in Second Coil "normal." Only a handful of players did that raid when it was released. Most waited until higher ilevels, if they did it at all. If it was truly about the challenge, more than 5-ish groups would have completed it when it was an actual challenge.

That's probably why they added a weapon with an additional materia slot and a shiny glow for the Unending Coil of Bahamut. It's not about just the challenge.

[Remedi]

Mythic+ isn't perfect and there are issues. The weekly cache is an issue (thus why people stop at +10 / +15). Exploiting the system in its infancy for titanforging is an issue (and as an aside, titanforging is also is an issue).

But does this mean the good of the system should be discarded?

No, such absolutist thinking has no place.

The system of an exponentionally increasing difficulty doesn't mix well with a system where your power gain is capped.
It simply means that you'll reach a hardcap on what you can manage which is not really that enticing.
It somewhat works on D3 (graeter rifts are the blueprint of mythic+) but even there there's an hardcap on what you can do and they constantly have to power creep the game to allow ppl to go further.

[Eli85]

lower ilevel -> less def -> enemies hit harder
also: longer time to kill enemies -> enemies have the chance to do their mechanics before they die

Factually incorrect. The enemies still put out the same damage. And if enemies live longer, it only makes it take longer (good players don't get hit by avoidable mechanics).

They aren't completely wrong. The Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage) that they referred to went largely ignored because it offered absolutely nothing unique. All you gained for completing it was titles tied to each floor- all the drops were the same as those in Second Coil "normal." Only a handful of players did that raid when it was released. Most waited until higher ilevels, if they did it at all. If it was truly about the challenge, more than 5-ish groups would have completed it when it was an actual challenge.

That's probably why they added a weapon with an additional materia slot and a shiny glow for the Unending Coil of Bahamut. It's not about just the challenge.

Do you have proof that it went "ignored"? Or just hearsay speculation? I'll trust more to completion rates by census'.

The "material reward" is +40 to one stat. If you honestly think that raiders are putting themselves through weeks, if not months of wiping for +40 to a stat, I don't know what to tell you. OTOH, they will do it for the challenge.

The system of an exponentionally increasing difficulty doesn't mix well with a system where your power gain is capped.
It simply means that you'll reach a hardcap on what you can manage which is not really that enticing.
It somewhat works on D3 (graeter rifts are the blueprint of mythic+) but even there there's an hardcap on what you can do and they constantly have to power creep the game to allow ppl to go further.

I really don't agree with the bold. Yes, player power is capped, but it is also substantively higher than what is needed for dungeons right now, and over the course of an expansion it does go up. This kind of system does not need an endless expotential increase; simply something that is not faceroll. It's a way to push challenge to at our power cap, and in the case of the best players, above what they should be capable of doing.

You don't need uncapped player power to make it work.

[loreleidiangelo]

I'd love to see something like Mythic+ dungeons here in XIV, but with the poor linear gear choices we have there's not much sideways wiggle room to give them meaningful rewards, and I don't think they'd be hugely popular without those.

Of late I've come to the conclusion that this game's stale itemization is a BIG part of the reason why our content is so formulaic. Give us gear set bonuses, better secondary stats that actually affect each job in different ways so people build for things that aren't Direct Hit (SB is admittedly better than ARR and HW in this, granted, but improvements can still be made), and IMO work on armor design a bit more and stop shoving the best glamour into crafting only so that glamour farming is realistic even for older content. Do these things and I guarantee the opportunity for fresh content will present itself, since there will be the possibility of "separate but equal or even possibly better" rewards that will entice players into trying it.

[frostmagemari]

Personally, i'd love to see a version of Mythic+ dungeons within the game. People always seem to complain about dungeons (A) not being difficult or (B) having to do the same ones over and over again and being bored.
A mythic+ system would alleviate that somewhat. Maybe it wouldn't be all the dungeons, or even half of them; but if it's more than the current patch's new dungeon then it can be a benefit.

Also.. people who are denouncing it DO know that you don't have to copy+paste the feature and it's reward style directly from the other game, right? SQE can change things to better suit their game. The only arguments against being open to taking a good system and incorporating it in some way is because you don't think the devs can do a good job in making the FFXIV version of a system better than the original; That, or you hate everything that's not FFXIV original systems because you think that if SQE didn't come up with it, it's not a worthwhile system... Despite the fact that XIV 2.0 wouldn't have existed at all if they didn't look at other games and their existing working systems.

[Remedi]

I really don't agree with the bold. Yes, player power is capped, but it is also substantively higher than what is needed for dungeons right now, and over the course of an expansion it does go up. This kind of system does not need an endless expotential increase; simply something that is not faceroll. It's a way to push challenge to at our power cap, and in the case of the best players, above what they should be capable of doing.

You don't need uncapped player power to make it work.

Then that is simply 4 man savage content and not mythic+, which is a different thing altogether and something they are considering doing anyway.
Anyway what I said remain true, even on wow the pushing to greater limit of mythic+ level is not that popular and that is to be because there are cap on the power gain (and some retarded affixes honestly) both on the max (hardcap of the ilvl of the patch) and the average gain (how much loot you can actually get from bosses in a week, honestly if you hate weekly cap here well wow is the same)
The system it's not well tuned for these kind of games even in their mother game D3 they reached the point where every season they have to give sets and items a MASSIVE power boost to allow new height to be reached, you can read the next D3 patch notes to have some background.
Having a wider range of gear stat partly would allow this but it's not a real solution and more of a bandaid.

Also I don't believe that the novelty of the challenge will last long for the majority of players anyway.
Mythic+ were born as a bastardization of challenge modes since the amount of ppl actually doing those were not that much.
Face it that the ONLY reason why mythic+ are considered a success is because you can get a disgusting quantity of raid gear out of it (not to mention AP)hence yes Most of the playerbase will just rush where there is the most gain.

That said I'm not against hard 4 man content. In fact I AM hoping they'll add something hard for 4 ppl and they kinda hinted it

[DeaconMoore]

Snip

The best thing mythic+ dungeons has going for it is you don't have to find a bunch of people on your own server to do it with. That plus the rewards makes it more desirable and feasible than mythic raiding especially on small servers. The difficulty of mythic+ dungeons goes away just like any other dungeon over time.

The only place you can find any kind of lasting difficulty is going to be in the pvp arena. There your opponents aren't predictable.

[frostmagemari]

The best thing mythic+ dungeons has going for it is you don't have to find a bunch of people on your own server to do it with. That plus the rewards makes it more desirable and feasible than mythic raiding especially on small servers. The difficulty of mythic+ dungeons goes away just like any other dungeon over time.

The only place you can find any kind of lasting difficulty is going to be in the pvp arena. There your opponents aren't predictable.

So because there's no perfect solution that solves every single problem without room for error, there's no reason to adopt systems that would lessen the problem that we have?
That's a good line of thinking to never get anything done.