Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

[DeaconMoore]

You do realize that doing a dungeon undersized and / or undergeared does not make it harder? The boss and trash damage is still the same, as is health and stats. For players who do not suck (avoids the avoidable mechanics) doing it in such a way simply makes it longer, not harder. On the other hand, if you scale the dungeons, then everything hits harder; so those boss attacks that the healer ignores now must be attended to, making their job much more difficult.

As for tomestones versus gear, I'd rather be gear farming (like the extreme primals) where I know that every kill I come closer to what I want, instead of farming easy content to cap out on a currency that I'll get one thing 2-3 weeks from now, regardless of how well I play.

I also realize that a drop in player health and stats makes mistakes less forgiving, the damage intake to players proportionally higher, & tank-buster mechanics more dangerous, and also mobs taking longer to kill taxes the healer more. All of which contribute to making the run more difficult. Take some gear off, you can scale the dungeon right now.

What exactly are you after though really? A harder dungeon run that's done just as quick? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

So you'd rather have the potential to run a dungeon hundreds of times and not get the gear you're after before the next content release makes it irrelevant vs getting tomes too and at least getting something for your efforts in a couple of weeks? ...We're not all masochists mate.

[Voltyblast]

I think this would make a great feature in FFXIV. Similar to Mythic+ system in WoW... I am not saying copy directly from that game but take the basic ideas and features and implement it in a unique way. Right now in FFXIV the dungeons are very easy. Basically in most of the dungeons I see tanks mass pulling the entire mobs until they face a wall and then dps AOE them down. This type of playstyle is very boring and not fun at all.

I agree, it would be a great feature, but for mostly for other reasons which I mentioned in another thread:

....dungeons have no other reason to stay than giving quicker tomes and that's it. Tomestone gear is objectively better than dungeon loot and don't you dare say "b-but it's for catch up on my alt" because it's far quicker to just spend tomes on your secondary classes and the job's done. Also, dungeons give absolutely no incentives to rerun them: there's no achievement, no special items, no unique glamour thingies, absolutely freaking nothing that would incentivize someone to do it again. In fact, Ala Mhigo might be the only dungeon in the entire game where there's some replayability since it drops a mount - the same reason why extreme primals are still alive to this day because if they hadn't those mounts, they'd do the same end of those countless dungeons rotting in your DF.

So yes, dungeon loot should actually give more rewards: glamour, mounts, unique achievements, titles and maybe even good gear, perhaps on the same level of tomestone or even slightly better to incentivize harder difficulties (I always say it: KEEP RAID GEAR IN RAID, what's the freaking point of it if I can get the same gear by upgrading it?!).
Sorry to say this but nobody does things for fun alone, nobody in the entire known universe: there HAS to be some reward behind it and that's why dungeons slowly become rotten data, because they just have nothing else to them besides being the occasional EXP gain or tome. So many dungeons in the game and yet people only run them for exp and that's ONLY because there's no other faster way to gain exp right now (heck dungeons aren't even good until 60 due to POTD). That's really sad if you ask me.

Sure, you can do synch for fun, sure you can run a dungeon in a different setup, sure you can add whatever handicap you want but guess what? There's nothing to gain from it and while you the 1% might like it, the other 99% of the entire playerbase might just not even care and play something entirely different.

Especially when there's no gain in all of this.

[Penthea]

This is false.

While I'm sure players do it partially for the challenge, they only do so in the context of gaining prestige within the playerbase, rather than actually caring about challenging themselves. Meanwhile, the true motivator behind doing Savage content is completion-ism and material reward. Most players, regrettably, do no do things "just for the heck of it" as someone posted above this. If they did, then old content would be alive and thriving, and my Eccentricity guild Discord for finding parties for unconventional challenges and fun would never have been made, because it would be the norm in-game.

What a blanket statement this is. I know plenty of people who do savage for the challenge and mostly view gear as a means to an end rather than to pose in something prestigious.

The reason why old content isn't as alive is because it's old. People have done it before, class balance has since changed so it's not like how it was at launch and the introduction of new classes changes it even more. Old content is out of date so it is prone to being badly balanced. Current content is designed for the current state of the game, this is one of the reasons why it is more desirable.

Yes the players that you speak of definitely exist but I think you greatly overestimate how many raiders are like that.

[Derio]

Its a MSQ dungeon so it met my expectations of it having very very very simple mechanics and enemies that hit with pillows. And the minimum item level is really low so its to be expected.

[NocturniaUzuki]

What a blanket statement this is. I know plenty of people who do savage for the challenge and mostly view gear as a means to an end rather than to pose in something prestigious.

The reason why old content isn't as alive is because it's old. People have done it before, class balance has since changed so it's not like how it was at launch and the introduction of new classes changes it even more. Old content is out of date so it is prone to being badly balanced. Current content is designed for the current state of the game, this is one of the reasons why it is more desirable.

Yes the players that you speak of definitely exist but I think you greatly overestimate how many raiders are like that.

First of all, it wasn't a blanket statement, since I said "most" not "all".

Also, it's not just because it's old. I'm sure the really veteran players may find it boring because it's old, but a huge portion of the playerbase has joined since Heavensward or Stormblood. And to them, old ARR content or HW content is not just boring because it's old. It's boring because there's no material reward worth getting from them, besides mounts, which people just unsync spam for.

I do think the class balance changes are an issue that affects their popularity, although the old content is still fun and a challenge despite that. I would much prefer to see a system that accounts for old content more often when they update.

[Penthea]

First of all, it wasn't a blanket statement, since I said "most" not "all".

Your post made it seem like you thought little other existed.

Also, it's not just because it's old. I'm sure the really veteran players may find it boring because it's old, but a huge portion of the playerbase has joined since Heavensward or Stormblood.

I think you're forgetting that the majority of active raiders are not new players. They would have done at least some of the old content before. Especially hardcore raiders, you won't find many players who only recently lost their sprout icon in those teams.

I do think the class balance changes are an issue that affects their popularity, although the old content is still fun and a challenge despite that. I would much prefer to see a system that accounts for old content more often when they update.

Every class has had their abilities pruned so that we don't suffer from spell bloat at lvl 70. Players syncing down to 60 or 50 may actually lack some of the tools they need to do that content because the level they're gained at has now changed. Similarly they may have access to abilities that didn't exist when that content was current which may give them an advantage. The challenge feels cheapened if you know you have a kit that is not designed for what you're doing.

Most players would prefer the devs to pour their resources into improving current content, new content or older content that is still heavily in use. The old savage/ex raids do not qualify for that.

[NocturniaUzuki]

Well, I think you're getting caught up a bit too much on the minority. Obviously, hardcores are usually not fresh players. Then again, as a fairly hardcore player myself, I joined at Far Edge of Fate, and STILL haven't actually unlocked Final Coil or any of the Savage Coils because I refuse to unsync them and finding a party otherwise is hell. Active end-game raiders are probably a majority of long-time players, and a not insignificant number of newer players. Once you get into casual, which makes up a vast portion of the playerbase, then old content is not so "old" anymore.

The class changes do affect old content, but they it make the content too easy, you can make it harder yourself (MinIL, or MinIL undersized). If they make it "impossible" the game would be broken and SQEX would have to fix it. If they make it significantly harder, maybe you'll have to take some unconventional approaches to clearing it. But most stuff can be done in strange, unintended ways in this game. For example you can 4-man Ultima's Bane with no tank on Synced. If they let us customize the sync level, it could be done at a significantly lower item level as well.

[Remedi]

A scaling dungeon system (like Mythic+) is really the way to go. I enjoy dungeons in XIV, but they're just a creation tome farm, no more and no less. I would absolutely love to be able to ratchet up the difficulty and try much harder versions of these dungeons.

Oh and folks? Just because Blizzard implemented a system in their own games, does not make it a horrible idea to implement in XIV.

The result of that implementation however is not really as good as ppl think it is considering that ppl just do their weekly rank 10 or 15 for the cache and then they just stop

also they changed how loot is handled in there several times to avoid ppl abusing low level keystones to proc titanforged items off there

[Eli85]

nor does it benefit anyone outside recent WoW players who are used to it.

That is what you said. Difficulty scalable dungeon tech does not benefit any recent WoW players. Truthfully, it would benefit XIV players substantively.

also news flash, people play content to be rewarded.... when coil savage was out people hated the lack of reward. People hated the alexander normal/savage modes asking for the savage modes to give more rewards outside of reskins. may want to pay attention. People do not do content for the heck of it...

Bolded is absolutely false. In the context of savage raiding, gear is a means to a goal. Raiders care about gear—including world first raiders—because at some point that gear will be needed to successfully overcome the challenge, but it is not the reason to do the content. Raiders do savage for the challenge, period. If the entire expansion's raid content could be cleared without gear, participation would remain the same. It's not the reason for participation.

You also know for a fact that "people" as you put it hated Alexander because of reasons? Funny how a lot of people enjoyed Alexander...

Snip.

Sorry but you're absolutely wrong. You are thinking of stereotypes long discarded. Raiding for prestige? Do you honestly think anyone who successfully completes content cares what people outside of their statics / FCs thinks of them? They don't. The only people who seemingly care are the try hards who think what someone does or does not do—that does not affect them in any way—actually matters (and it doesn't matter).

Raiders do it for the challenge and, as you said, complete the content. Old content isn't done because it's old, been done so many times, and they want something new.

Snip.

Once again, in your example, it is longer, not harder. When you take your gear off, the boss does the exact same damage and has the exact same health. The only thing different is that you are statistically weaker, and thus, the fight takes longer.

What am I after? Actual harder dungeons, and not simply longer dungeons, as you are suggesting.

Snip.

Mythic+ isn't perfect and there are issues. The weekly cache is an issue (thus why people stop at +10 / +15). Exploiting the system in its infancy for titanforging is an issue (and as an aside, titanforging is also is an issue).

But does this mean the good of the system should be discarded?

No, such absolutist thinking has no place.

[Yeol]

Right now in FFXIV the dungeons are very easy. Basically in most of the dungeons I see tanks mass pulling the entire mobs until they face a wall and then dps AOE them down.

The reason dungeons are easy is because:
(1) Most of them are story dungeons. People will be doing them with low lvl gear. It has to be easy enough for 1st timers.
(2) Daily Roulettes. Now imagine doing a very long and somewhat hard dungeon every day. Not many will like this, especially those that farm them for glamour.

If you are going to create an optional harder dungeon, it has to give good rewards or else it will end up dead like The Diadem.
At the moment, giving gear as a reward is out of the question.

We already get iL330 from creation that can be upgraded to iL340 with tokens from Savage raids and 24-man raid.
Crafted gear which is iL320 is more than enough to clear any current content (Savage was cleared with crafted gear).
Are you going to give them iL335? Not good enough. People that can do these hard dungeons are better off doing Savage for iL340.

We have PoTD. You can do it solo or with a group. SB will introduce the next floors for it in later patches.
PotD gives all sort of rewards. Titles, mounts, minions, tomestones, even EXP. And a challenge on top of that if you go for higher floors. So it will never be dead content.