Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

[Vahlnir]

A scaling dungeon system (like Mythic+) is really the way to go. I enjoy dungeons in XIV, but they're just a creation tome farm, no more and no less. I would absolutely love to be able to ratchet up the difficulty and try much harder versions of these dungeons.

Oh and folks? Just because Blizzard implemented a system in their own games, does not make it a horrible idea to implement in XIV.

They'd have to put one heck of a carrot on the end of that stick to make me run max level dungeons on a higher difficulty. Even now I'm burned out on Experts. Ran Drowned City maybe twice since the patch. Just nothing there for my main...and I'm getting tomes other places. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but the rewards would have to be better to make it work. As to what those rewards would be I have no idea. Gear would be an obvious choice, but it wouldn't work so well with tome gear and Savage.

[DeaconMoore]

A scaling dungeon system (like Mythic+) is really the way to go. I enjoy dungeons in XIV, but they're just a creation tome farm, no more and no less. I would absolutely love to be able to ratchet up the difficulty and try much harder versions of these dungeons.

Oh and folks? Just because Blizzard implemented a system in their own games, does not make it a horrible idea to implement in XIV.

How is farming for tomes different from gear farming? You're still just running the dungeon over and over except you can pick what gear you want with the tomes... Or do you just want the challenge and don't care about gear at all? If so, why not do it undersized &/or undergeared? You don't have to wait for SE to make a difficulty slider.

[Eli85]

Snip.

The reward is the challenge, and to test your abilities as a player. A gear reward would be nice (as a progression alternative to savage), but it is far from required. Players—especially Final Fantasy players, given the lack of reward from super bosses in the single-player installments—do not need any other carrot.

Snip.

You do realize that doing a dungeon undersized and / or undergeared does not make it harder? The boss and trash damage is still the same, as is health and stats. For players who do not suck (avoids the avoidable mechanics) doing it in such a way simply makes it longer, not harder. On the other hand, if you scale the dungeons, then everything hits harder; so those boss attacks that the healer ignores now must be attended to, making their job much more difficult.

As for tomestones versus gear, I'd rather be gear farming (like the extreme primals) where I know that every kill I come closer to what I want, instead of farming easy content to cap out on a currency that I'll get one thing 2-3 weeks from now, regardless of how well I play.

Snip.

The only people who would benefit from scaling difficulty dungeons in XIV are recent WoW players? So how do players playing WoW benefit at all from something new in XIV?

Your ridiculousness aside, no, it's not just "recent WoW players" benefit from it. Players (in XIV) who are looking for a hard challenge (there is a reason we're getting Super Savage / Ultimate Series) have yet another outlet for it. I mean, they could still attach creation tomestones to it (more than what the normal difficulty gives, obviously), and I would love to do a much harder version for a greater reward.

To you I repeat this firmly: just because WoW has a system does not mean it is a terribly idea to be used outside of WoW. I'm an ex-WoW player, and there are several things I never want to see from WoW in this game, but that does not mean I'll willfully ignore the real positive systems that could be of great value here.

So just stop the hate.

[Vahlnir]

The reward is the challenge, and to test your abilities as a player. A gear reward would be nice (as a progression alternative to savage), but it is far from required. Players—especially Final Fantasy players, given the lack of reward from super bosses in the single-player installments—do not need any other carrot.

That didn't work out too well for Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage) when it was new. Sure, people did it for bragging rights, but those were a very small portion of the player base. The rewards didn't justify the difficulty. So, they would need to add incentive to get people to run dungeons on higher difficulties...like they did with Savage in HW and SB, and soon to be Ultimate. It could be something along the lines of mounts, minions, exclusive glamour sets, etc when it comes to dungeons, seeing as the gear rewards are either from tome gear or raiding.

[Eli85]

Snip.

You do realize that any content with any level of difficulty is for the top 1%, right? If the developers only put in content that most of the player base could do, you could do nothing but auto-attack to complete the content.

Also, if you honestly think that completion percentages are that much higher for savage in HW and SB, I got news for ya, it really isn't. The players who do savage do not do it for mounts, minions, glamour, or gear. It's for the challenge, period. Challenge is the ONLY reward required for this higher level content.

[BigRed5392]

So just stop the hate.

i have no hate, I played WoW and found it to be too easy. I also am seeing the op posting all request, that are stuff from WoW with the premise that "wow is better ff14 is dull"

this was a suggestion not long again, no one seems to want it. also "wow players who are used to it..." just means those who play WoW and understand the system, again no hate.

stop digging up drama when there is none to be had.

also news flash, people play content to be rewarded.... when coil savage was out people hated the lack of reward. People hated the alexander normal/savage modes asking for the savage modes to give more rewards outside of reskins. may want to pay attention. People do not do content for the heck of it...

[Eli85]

nor does it benefit anyone outside recent WoW players who are used to it.

That is what you said. Difficulty scalable dungeon tech does not benefit any recent WoW players. Truthfully, it would benefit XIV players substantively.

also news flash, people play content to be rewarded.... when coil savage was out people hated the lack of reward. People hated the alexander normal/savage modes asking for the savage modes to give more rewards outside of reskins. may want to pay attention. People do not do content for the heck of it...

Bolded is absolutely false. In the context of savage raiding, gear is a means to a goal. Raiders care about gear—including world first raiders—because at some point that gear will be needed to successfully overcome the challenge, but it is not the reason to do the content. Raiders do savage for the challenge, period. If the entire expansion's raid content could be cleared without gear, participation would remain the same. It's not the reason for participation.

You also know for a fact that "people" as you put it hated Alexander because of reasons? Funny how a lot of people enjoyed Alexander...

Snip.

Sorry but you're absolutely wrong. You are thinking of stereotypes long discarded. Raiding for prestige? Do you honestly think anyone who successfully completes content cares what people outside of their statics / FCs thinks of them? They don't. The only people who seemingly care are the try hards who think what someone does or does not do—that does not affect them in any way—actually matters (and it doesn't matter).

Raiders do it for the challenge and, as you said, complete the content. Old content isn't done because it's old, been done so many times, and they want something new.

Snip.

Once again, in your example, it is longer, not harder. When you take your gear off, the boss does the exact same damage and has the exact same health. The only thing different is that you are statistically weaker, and thus, the fight takes longer.

What am I after? Actual harder dungeons, and not simply longer dungeons, as you are suggesting.

Snip.

Mythic+ isn't perfect and there are issues. The weekly cache is an issue (thus why people stop at +10 / +15). Exploiting the system in its infancy for titanforging is an issue (and as an aside, titanforging is also is an issue).

But does this mean the good of the system should be discarded?

No, such absolutist thinking has no place.

[DeaconMoore]

You do realize that doing a dungeon undersized and / or undergeared does not make it harder? The boss and trash damage is still the same, as is health and stats. For players who do not suck (avoids the avoidable mechanics) doing it in such a way simply makes it longer, not harder. On the other hand, if you scale the dungeons, then everything hits harder; so those boss attacks that the healer ignores now must be attended to, making their job much more difficult.

As for tomestones versus gear, I'd rather be gear farming (like the extreme primals) where I know that every kill I come closer to what I want, instead of farming easy content to cap out on a currency that I'll get one thing 2-3 weeks from now, regardless of how well I play.

I also realize that a drop in player health and stats makes mistakes less forgiving, the damage intake to players proportionally higher, & tank-buster mechanics more dangerous, and also mobs taking longer to kill taxes the healer more. All of which contribute to making the run more difficult. Take some gear off, you can scale the dungeon right now.

What exactly are you after though really? A harder dungeon run that's done just as quick? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

So you'd rather have the potential to run a dungeon hundreds of times and not get the gear you're after before the next content release makes it irrelevant vs getting tomes too and at least getting something for your efforts in a couple of weeks? ...We're not all masochists mate.

[Felis]

You do realize that doing a dungeon undersized and / or undergeared does not make it harder? The boss and trash damage is still the same, as is health and stats.

lower ilevel -> less def -> enemies hit harder
also: longer time to kill enemies -> enemies have the chance to do their mechanics before they die

[Eli85]

lower ilevel -> less def -> enemies hit harder
also: longer time to kill enemies -> enemies have the chance to do their mechanics before they die

Factually incorrect. The enemies still put out the same damage. And if enemies live longer, it only makes it take longer (good players don't get hit by avoidable mechanics).

They aren't completely wrong. The Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage) that they referred to went largely ignored because it offered absolutely nothing unique. All you gained for completing it was titles tied to each floor- all the drops were the same as those in Second Coil "normal." Only a handful of players did that raid when it was released. Most waited until higher ilevels, if they did it at all. If it was truly about the challenge, more than 5-ish groups would have completed it when it was an actual challenge.

That's probably why they added a weapon with an additional materia slot and a shiny glow for the Unending Coil of Bahamut. It's not about just the challenge.

Do you have proof that it went "ignored"? Or just hearsay speculation? I'll trust more to completion rates by census'.

The "material reward" is +40 to one stat. If you honestly think that raiders are putting themselves through weeks, if not months of wiping for +40 to a stat, I don't know what to tell you. OTOH, they will do it for the challenge.

The system of an exponentionally increasing difficulty doesn't mix well with a system where your power gain is capped.
It simply means that you'll reach a hardcap on what you can manage which is not really that enticing.
It somewhat works on D3 (graeter rifts are the blueprint of mythic+) but even there there's an hardcap on what you can do and they constantly have to power creep the game to allow ppl to go further.

I really don't agree with the bold. Yes, player power is capped, but it is also substantively higher than what is needed for dungeons right now, and over the course of an expansion it does go up. This kind of system does not need an endless expotential increase; simply something that is not faceroll. It's a way to push challenge to at our power cap, and in the case of the best players, above what they should be capable of doing.

You don't need uncapped player power to make it work.