Why you should play a healer!

[Jerichai]

Parsers are a reflection of damage and in any content with a hard enrage damage (and mechanics) does equal completion.

Partially right. Pretty much an encounter has a minimum group wide DPS requirement a party must achieve in order to complete. But there has never been a fight where all the DPS had to achieve their perfect theoretical DPS for a given fight in order to complete it, even with problematic raids like Gordias.

Go take a look at all the logs for a given class on a particular fight (and look at those within a set of similar ilvl for consistency). You'll find that there's a decent range of overall DPS between them. Some of this is based on comp, buffs, even luck. But player skill also factors in. And it's not just the near perfect DPS clearing content.

[Jerichai]

It's amazing how many people will pile on when you suggest that DPS aren't god's gift to gaming and are no more important or inherently more complicated than any other role in end game content.

Like seriously, people looking down on my because I prefer to main healer is exactly why I only ever try to do more challenging content with people I know, cause the elitism has just gotten intolerable in most MMOs, and it's always over such manufactured BS.

But man, those combos...

[Cynfael]

Like seriously, people looking down on my because I prefer to main healer is exactly why I only ever try to do more challenging content with people I know, cause the elitism has just gotten intolerable in most MMOs, and it's always over such manufactured BS

It’s looking increasingly like you have some unresolved issues of your own that you are projecting onto other posters, because you continue to argue against a point that no one is making. How many people have to rephrase the same explanations for you before you understand that no one is beating up on healers?

You do realize that most of us around here are healer mains, yes? And a good number of us actively participate in Savage-level content on healer and on other roles? We have a fairly good understanding of what the three roles entail in end-game, so no, this is far from a bunch of DPS players putting down healer contributions.

Do your arguments come from personal experience, or are you whipping up hypothetical scenarios to support your points? You’re quick to push back on any suggestion that healer is less than complex in every possible meaning of the term, yet you deride DPS role requirements as extremely easy to achieve, even in context of Savage raids. Tell us more about your Savage experience with healer and DPS roles and how you came to these conclusions through your own gameplay.

It’s your hypersensitivity to perceived criticism that started this conversation and kept it rolling even after I ducked out of it, not any elitist conspiracy. As soon as you saw someone suggesting that healing wasn’t mechanically complex (not even a comment on overall difficulty), you fixated on what you assumed was being said and still haven’t let go of that bone.

[Sebazy]

It also doesn't refute my point either. All content has a min group wide DPS requirement to meet in order to clear the content.

Consider that a) we don't hit the ground running with capped gear in a new progression tier and b) strategies can take weeks to get refined and optimised to what you see in a MrHappy video. SE are fairly shrewd in tuning content so that it is dooable out of the gate, but with rather strict requirements compared to further on down the line. So yes, that gap between a flawless run and a wipe to enrage can often be very very narrow initially. As iLvls go up and strategies get optimised it widens rather significantly. My stance on this is no doubt skewed because I put my stock in the early weeks and tough times of progression, that's the time when content matters and I'm enjoying myself the most IMHO. I do appreciate and understand where you're coming from, perhaps it's time you returned the favour?

Why did I bring Gordias into this?

But there has never been a fight where all the DPS had to achieve their perfect theoretical DPS for a given fight in order to complete it, even with problematic raids like Gordias.

.... there has never been a fight where all the DPS had to achieve their perfect theoretical DPS ....

Yeah, uh, hi?

And yeah, when you say so intently healers are a breeze to play

Say what?

Please quote me where I 'so intently' said that.

I still think you're absolutely misunderstanding my point =(

It's as Cyn's saying, a healer's core kit is rather simplistic, notably more so than the rocket science DPS combos and Tank 'phases' in this game. Does that make a healer comparatively effortless to raid with? Absolutely not, healers need a level of spatial awareness and presence of mind that would actually be rather detrimental to a top tier DPS. Not to mention, significant Healer mistakes tend to get punished with a far higher frequency and with much more impactful results than DPS mistakes.

some people will take that as their efforts and overall contributions are not as valued...which is a shitty attitude to bring to a thread aimed at attracting new healers.

Have you seen how often I gush over my co-healer?

This weeks O1S was a solid demonstration of why I rate him as one of the very best SCHs in this game.

Almost everyone else died, several multiple times, half of us wanted to get back to Destiny 2, the other half wanted to get back to Coil or just didn't care, we were down to 2 characters standing. The guy not only kept the run on the rails, he bagged a 96% out of it in the process. Fluke? Feel free to look at his logs. I take huge pride in my capacity to carry rough raids, but I couldn't dream of doing it whilst also contributing the DPS that he does in the process.

I overreact to things going wrong and drop everything to unleash the floodgates of HPS to ride the storm. He consistently manages to react just enough to keep things going without derailing his own numbers in the process.

This is why I'm merely a decent healer whilst he is absolutely world class.

To anyone that might doubt that a healer's value and contribution isn't there I ask: Do you think I keep the company I do because of my DPS?

[MoroMurasaki]

It's amazing how many people will pile on when you suggest that DPS aren't god's gift to gaming and are no more important or inherently more complicated than any other role in end game content.

Like seriously, people looking down on my because I prefer to main healer is exactly why I only ever try to do more challenging content with people I know, cause the elitism has just gotten intolerable in most MMOs, and it's always over such manufactured BS.

But man, those combos...

How is anyone looking down on you for maining healer? The vast majority of people who have responded to you, myself included, are healer mains!

As I have said several times now you keep creating this false narrative that equates saying DPS are technically more complicated in their gameplay than healers with the idea that healers are lazy or being carried. Literally no one is saying the thing you are complaining about.

Maybe try reading the posts in the thread you're responding to before you go and try to have a passive aggressive pity party because you don't like opinions you don't agree with.

Edit: Damnit Cyn, stop posting a minute before me while saying what I said better than I said it >.<

[Vyriah]

Yeah, you're Savage players and you seem to know each other a bit from this forum. Then let a bit of a room to breath to that one person who is saying something different. I mean, you do seem to make a point in not belittleling others but you don't have a problem asking for their creditencial to state what they think.

Also, wasn't it supposed to be something along the lines of floor level vs ceiling level ? I'm not sure what gaming creditentials have to do. You're doing savage, good for you. But exactly because you're seasonned player doing savage tier encounter for years your opinion on floor level gameplay is slightly off. Sure, it look super simple to you but that's not what entry level means.

I've a lot of long time MNK or DRG players say the same thing "it looks more difficult than it actually is, you just use same skills in the same order everytime. By the time you get to lv70, anyone can do that". You think it's simple because you're used to it, everyone will tell you there job is simple. Everytime i say to a PLD that I can't arround that job, I get same answer "no way, it's super easy I'm mostly just using the same spell blablabla".
And the again : SCH is execution monster team. I'm not even sure how anyone playing it can say otherwise. The clear DoT management VS burst healer of HW was about awareness, but the current one is all about weaving all those OGCD in your only two instant cast. This exactly melee DPS gameplay, miasma 2 being point blank AoE even look like caster made postional.

Also, it case that's what you wanted to know : yes, you get insulted and told you're getting carried by parse worshipping DPS and such. Already told it, my single first best performance on SCH (wich I did just because we saw enrage multiple time and tried my best to step up as much as I could, I only saw how it turned out the next day because some else made a log of it) was welcomed by "OMG YOU'RE SO BAD WE CARRIED YOU THROUGH THIS" by a pretty under performing DPS. Most player greatly undervalue healer input into the fight and greatly overestimate DPS. It's not something you should see in static play, but it happens in PU. Not everytime, but enough for anyone to have some horror story about it.
And the idea that healers only have to press the heal and everything is fine is the reason why everyone thing they can be arrogant toward them no matter what happen. Even in this raid where bosses are mostly AoE firing striking dummies with huge down phases (except O3S, again).

I know, you're not responsible for shitty behavior of everyone. But what you're saying right is the exact reason why an extremly average DPS will look down on a average healer, even when they have no clue about what you're doing (some one actually told "but you're bad, I barely ever saw you cast a healing spell" while I was playing as SCH).
So yeah, healing and DPSing asks different type of qualities, but there's no reason to even begin on the "this one is more simple", especially on something as broad as healer vs DPS, as it brings nothing but trouble. And ultimatly, yes, it does downplay healers. You're just not the one getting it.

[Kabzy]

Most player greatly undervalue healer input into the fight and greatly overestimate DPS. It's not something you should see in static play, but it happens in PU.

This is just wrong. I think the reason a lot of us are advocating DPS recognition is due to the fact that they hardly ever get the praise they deserve. Healers have so many areas that they can excel in that will get recognition from others, and DPS hardly ever do. You see this even in lower level content where DPS hardly ever get commended no matter how well they perform. So I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this idea of healers being undervalued. We have the limelight in pretty much any party, whether it's for good reasons or bad.

Also, this entire conversation going on between a few of you is completely pointless. It's just one big misunderstanding. The "savage players" are merely pointing out that the lack of positionals, timers and rotations mean that the healer kit is the easiest in the game. THE KIT. They're not saying that the role itself is easy. Our difficulty comes from content design and our party, more so than the other roles. I don't really see why this needs to be repeated another hundred times for the not so "savage players" to understand.

[Vyriah]

Well I'm a savage player too. Why does it always fall back to that us vs them rethorics, that's not the point.

I'm talking about playing a class for something like... 4 years ? I pretty sure I saw both Cyn and Sebazy talking about ARR raiding and they way they talk about the game is close the friend that introduced me to this game. I didn't said that to say they're elitist pricks, I do understand where they come from and why they're saying that and I said, talk about job complexity to DPS playing since ARR and they will tell you that it's nothing and that healer/tanks are worse.

Having years long exeprience in playing your, strating by it's most barebone incarnation, make easier to get than it is that would look by its lv70 standard. I'm talking about a more recent point of vue, not conflicting against "savage players" whatever that could mean.

It may not look like it, but I'm doing all possible effort to not turn that into a semantic nitpicking but having rotation and such works as guidelines that make the job more clear and intuitive into what you're required to do. Everything that you need to use to be efficient is told you little by little through the game. Rotation, placement, burst phases, ressources management aren't hurdle that you have overcome but the actual main attraction of the job, the thing that'll allow to step your efficiency.
The reason why heal doesn't have combo is pretty obvious : if you would to cast cure to cast medica, precasting medica for an AoE would require you to use a wasted spell to get what you need to do. On the other hand, their MP cost is much higher. They don't do the same thing so the way they're limited is different but going into "this as a whole is simple and this as a whole is complex" is a very slippery slope.

I'm glad for you that you didn't have to go through those other player that will monitor your cast bar and search trough your logs an occasion to tell you you're that bad healer. Commend is another matter entirely, people commend healer and tank because less player are playing those roles. And the main reason is because they won't have to cross those "you only have to use a single skill and you can't even do that".
So they play DPS, like most of the player of the game that don't seem to be that impressed by DPS's kits.

Eh, pretty funny that everytime I try step in to defend lower skilled player my own achievement are instantly downplayed. I killed NeoExdeath (recently, but still) and had a regular ~85% on SCH before I chose to drop it in this patch. I think I'm a reasonnably fair player too.
Also I have done Savage content on DPS, even if only a few and will surely do more later on.

[MoroMurasaki]

Yeah, you're Savage players and you seem to know each other a bit from this forum. Then let a bit of a room to breath to that one person who is saying something different. I mean, you do seem to make a point in not belittleling others but you don't have a problem asking for their creditencial to state what they think.

Also, wasn't it supposed to be something along the lines of floor level vs ceiling level ? I'm not sure what gaming creditentials have to do. You're doing savage, good for you. But exactly because you're seasonned player doing savage tier encounter for years your opinion on floor level gameplay is slightly off. Sure, it look super simple to you but that's not what entry level means.

I've a lot of long time MNK or DRG players say the same thing "it looks more difficult than it actually is, you just use same skills in the same order everytime. By the time you get to lv70, anyone can do that". You think it's simple because you're used to it, everyone will tell you there job is simple. Everytime i say to a PLD that I can't arround that job, I get same answer "no way, it's super easy I'm mostly just using the same spell blablabla".
And the again : SCH is execution monster team. I'm not even sure how anyone playing it can say otherwise. The clear DoT management VS burst healer of HW was about awareness, but the current one is all about weaving all those OGCD in your only two instant cast. This exactly melee DPS gameplay, miasma 2 being point blank AoE even look like caster made postional.

Also, it case that's what you wanted to know : yes, you get insulted and told you're getting carried by parse worshipping DPS and such. Already told it, my single first best performance on SCH (wich I did just because we saw enrage multiple time and tried my best to step up as much as I could, I only saw how it turned out the next day because some else made a log of it) was welcomed by "OMG YOU'RE SO BAD WE CARRIED YOU THROUGH THIS" by a pretty under performing DPS. Most player greatly undervalue healer input into the fight and greatly overestimate DPS. It's not something you should see in static play, but it happens in PU. Not everytime, but enough for anyone to have some horror story about it.
And the idea that healers only have to press the heal and everything is fine is the reason why everyone thing they can be arrogant toward them no matter what happen. Even in this raid where bosses are mostly AoE firing striking dummies with huge down phases (except O3S, again).

I know, you're not responsible for shitty behavior of everyone. But what you're saying right is the exact reason why an extremly average DPS will look down on a average healer, even when they have no clue about what you're doing (some one actually told "but you're bad, I barely ever saw you cast a healing spell" while I was playing as SCH).
So yeah, healing and DPSing asks different type of qualities, but there's no reason to even begin on the "this one is more simple", especially on something as broad as healer vs DPS, as it brings nothing but trouble. And ultimatly, yes, it does downplay healers. You're just not the one getting it.

I think the reason mediocre DPS (and tanks) will look down on similarly skilled healers is that healers have a much more noticable detriment to their comparatively less frequent mistakes - people die or the group wipes.

You seem to be pretty set in framing this conversation around more casual content. I'm not sure if it's because you think it suits your narrative better or because you're realizing Sebazy is basically a god when it comes to Savage, either way I can indulge this because I certainly play a fair bit of casual content.

In an early dungeon if a tank is doing normal pulls a SCH can summon their fairy and follow the tank, essentially AFKing the first 3 dungeons. A WHM/AST will need to cast their basic cure sometimes but still have ample time to dance or explore or spam emotes (or even DPS) is they so choose. I think it was Taika who gave the number 17% representing the amount of time they had to be actively casting during a dungeon on healer with no contibuted DPS. 17% of the time active. That's 83% of the time inactive.

That is so much time.

Imagine a tank or a DPS being idle for two GCD's between each GCD. Imagine how long it would take for things to die. A healer can do that in the most casual content in the game and everything will be fine. If that isn't easy gameplay I don't know what is.

Let's go more midcore, at least keep things at max level - Omega Normal. This is, at this point, faceroll content but it certainly requres more than 17% activity (well, maybe not O2N but that's a discussion for another day) so at least healers are doing something even if they aren't DPSing. Chrybdis and all that.

Most of the 'diffculty' at this level of gameplay is caused by basic movement mechanics (dodging fireballs, spreading levinbolts, stacking for stack markers, etc.) which effect every person in the party at most points. What do you lose as a healer for performing these mechanics? A single cast of your nuke, maybe having to double up on your cures to the MT because you had to interrupt a cast. Or just burn an oGCD heal and call it a day.

What does a SMN lose? Well, if the boss goes untargetable during Dreadwyrm Trance (or god forbid Bahamut) you are looking at a significant DPS loss. If you're on a melee (especially one with lots of positionals) you might lose some of your primary source of damage like the Jinpu or Shifu buffs to SAM (10% damage up/action time reduction) or if you're a MNK you could drop Greased Lightning.

These roles (and indeed all DPS roles) work for a length of time to build up to their maximum effectiveness and when you interrupt the buildup or the end result (like Bahamut for SMN) they actually have something to lose.

This is why they are technically more complicated - it takes actual time and effort to get to those burst phases, to those big hits that make it all worthwhile. Having Jinpu up for a Kaiten-boosted Midare Setsugekka takes planning and forethought. Casting a nuke until you need to reapply your Dots (or DoT, looking at you AST) just can't compare.

Yes healers have to focus on different things. Yes healing can be challenging. Yes healers are ultimately responsible for the lives of their party members unless a hard enrage is involved.

None of these things make them technically complicated.

I am convinced anyone who tries to compare the technical proficency required to heal with the proficency required to put out top tier dps simply hasn't done both of those things. I'm sorry if this offends someone, it isnt my intention, but this is a black and white argument where one side is objectively correct.

[Sebazy]

because you're realizing Sebazy is basically a god when it comes to Savage

The sentiment is appreciated, but I'm definitely not a god of Savage =P

There's better healers than me here on these forums, I'm just old and opinionated, I'll leave the God status to the Elias and Ayessas out there. They deserve it far more than I do.