4.1 Dark Knight Feedback and fixes

[Mycow8me]

Except no one has offered the idea of only making it a ogcd alone. The idea was to give it a timer of 10-15 seconds so it can't be "flashed" off while making it an isntant. Warriors gain access to immediate +healing% ontop of IB and equilibrium. Ca'mon no one in their right mind is going to use equilibrium in deliverance so its going to be ready almost every time they switch to tank stance for hp gains if not every time. You are trying to contest the change way to hard. The bosses are all scripted, any war who is well adept in a fight can know when to preswitch to defiance for full HP + an IB for a tankbuster if they wanted. Hell if a dark knight is low on mp they can't even switch grit on in its current state.

Turning grit on and then using TBN would consume half our MP but a war is free to switch, heal itself, and mitigate 20%+an extra 7-10k from IB hp gains though to be fair it does cost 50 gauge i guess...

I'm just glossing everything over... fair enough. I'll save my patience for someone else then.

[Aana]

Except no one has offered the idea of only making it a ogcd alone. The idea was to give it a timer of 10-15 seconds so it can't be "flashed" off while making it an isntant. Warriors gain access to immediate +healing% ontop of IB and equilibrium. Ca'mon no one in their right mind is going to use equilibrium in deliverance so its going to be ready almost every time they switch to tank stance for hp gains if not every time. You are trying to contest the change way to hard. The bosses are all scripted, any war who is well adept in a fight can know when to preswitch to defiance for full HP + an IB for a tankbuster if they wanted. Hell if a dark knight is low on mp they can't even switch grit on in its current state.

Turning grit on and then using TBN would consume half our MP but a war is free to switch, heal itself, and mitigate 20%+an extra 7-10k from IB hp gains though to be fair it does cost 50 gauge i guess...

I'm just glossing everything over... fair enough. I'll save my patience for someone else then.

I personally like that all the tank stances are all defensively equal (when fully 'on'), but have slightly different interactions when your character 'transitions' from beating the shit out of stuff to wall mode and back again. Sure, we could all have OGCD, 10 sec stance locks, and calculate out the costs to be mathematically equal losses for all 3 classes, but that's just boring. They are pretty darn close right now. Maybe drks should cost 10% less or something minor, but I feel there are much bigger fish to fry that don't intentionally homogenize tanking where it currently isnt.

[Claire_Pendragon]

I personally like that all the tank stances are all defensively equal (when fully 'on'), but have slightly different interactions when your character 'transitions' from beating the shit out of stuff to wall mode and back again. Sure, we could all have OGCD, 10 sec stance locks, and calculate out the costs to be mathematically equal losses for all 3 classes, but that's just boring. They are pretty darn close right now. Maybe drks should cost 10% less or something minor, but I feel there are much bigger fish to fry that don't intentionally homogenize tanking where it currently isnt.

While ur not quite disagreeing with ppl, nor are they really with you, I'd like to mention;

Any boss thats actually of any level of challenge, requires 2 mitigation to really survive the "real" TBs.
In the case of DRK, most commonly its tank stance, and TBN.
You can stack 2 oGCDs like when the tanks propperly switch, and have enough CDs to double stack them, while staying in DPS stances.
But in the end, its 2.

So over simplifying it;

PLD has tank stance, + rampart (or sheltron, w/e)
DRK has tank stance, + rampart (or TBN, w/e)
WAR has tank stance, +IB (or w/e)

So on average, each tank gives up 1 GCD and 1 oGCD.

Each tank stance comes at the cost of, besides the base dps loss they apply directly;
PLD loses 2 GCDs, which I think was 14 WSs needed to make up the dps loss? (maybe it was 12 or 13)
DRK loses 1 GCD, and 25% of their MP, which is roughly 7 GCDs to make up the DPS, plus the lost MP, but that changes based on which stance they are in.
WAR loses "the possibility" of not using fell cleave or a window of DPS.

PLD and DRK do lose more than WAR does from swapping stances.

thats the ONLY real reason anyone ever complained about the unfairness of WAR stance dancing.

WARs stance is great for snap threat, not as great for snap mitigation.
PLD/DRK is decent at snap mitigation, not so good as snap threat.

In the hardest content, tank stances are mainly used for threat, not mitigation, unless something goes wrong.

I dont think the other 2 tanks should get oGCD tank stances, but it is easy to see where WAR shines a bit more than the other 2 in its ability to minimize DPS loss from stance dancing.

[Xenosan]

PLD loses 2 GCDs, which I think was 14 WSs needed to make up the dps loss? (maybe it was 12 or 13)

I'd like to know what it's at now, I believe 15sec but that almost sounds forgiving.. I recall in ARR to overcome the DPS loss of dropping a GCD to turn on Sword Oath was around 15 seconds or just under or at 2 RoHs (iirc).. Unless it was a practice dummy or T8, just dropped Shield instead and wait for a mechanic/movement downtime to turn on SwO.

That was just moving from ShO to SwO, not accounting for the additional GCD lost turning ShO on first.

This was before Holy Spirt (MP) & Requiscat, Goring, and 15% ShO penalty. I don't see how that window would have gotten any smaller.

[Aana]

I think Im loosing the original point in the weeds a bit.

These costs are all most pronounced if you try to 'flash' their current tank stance (ie: on AND off quickly) for short term mitigation (use it like a CD). The game is actively discouraging players from doing that and does a darn good job. And I don't want that part to change. That's what I tend to find most 'make pld/drk stances OGCD' request end up becoming because they just remove the costs and say 'it works on war I want it too'. My apologies for assuming you guys meant the same thing.

*Drks cost is entirely frontloaded so it feels bad to get INTO tank stance. But it is literally FREE to change OUT of tank stance on command.
* Pld costs less to get INTO tank stance (MP is not as valuable), but also free to drop. However has to pay the toll yet again on the backend to get INTO dps stance later with an interest payment of missed AA damage in the gap between free drop tank stance and the AA offense stance.
*War is 'free' to get into tank stance but it doesn't actually do anything until we pay a secondary cost (ib/equal or have someone else pay the cost and heal us to full). However the tradeoff being OGCD is we are committed for 10 sec, 4gcds minimum of lost damage and 'access' to IR/FC which then take more GCDs to make up the lost damage (similar to other tanks 7-8 total to make up).

The game stomps on every tank for trying to 'flash' tank stance for 2-3 sec at a time as it should.

War DOES have do better in a transition for a more 'traditional' tank swap where you are in beast mode, then put on your hard hat and tank for ~2minutes then swap again as it washes out the costs over time (the 10 sec lock) while pld still has to pay again (later) and drk had to pay so steeply up front. I'm not arguing that.

The only note id add at this point is war has always been like that. ie: days of jumping to defiance, popping unchained, bustin a cap making their swaps just flat better than the other tanks equivalents. That was a (rather iconic imo) of war fantasy. Does that make it right for 1 tank to do traditional long swaps with less cost? Iunno. But it's always been a piece of war's 'thing', though much less pronounced with IR deleting unchained usage. Obviously this is a blatant Appeal to Tradition fallacy, but when were talking about tanks and their identities, its at least relevant to consider I think.
_____________________________
TLDR: I think we're agreeing sorta. I was focused on preventing the 'flashing' of tank stances on and off for a second at a time which is (currently) VERY costly for all 3 tanks, as it should be. No denying War has always had more efficient 'long term' swaps where you sit in tank stance for a good long while before handing it back. My only counter to the latter is a blatant appeal to tradition and has always been a part of the 'character' of the class.

[Nordvrede]

I had an idea for a replacement to Sole Survivor, since it's pretty bad at the moment. I'll leave it to those better at theory and number crunching to see if this is OP or not, and it's just a suggestion, so try not to rip my guts out over it



Blood Feast:
Level 62
Cost - 30 Blood
Duration - 5 seconds
Recast - 40 seconds
No stance requirement
Self-only Heal - 20% HP (or an equivalent to a BiS geared HP, could even be a HoT)
Mana Instant - 10% Refresh
Mitigation - 10% Physical and Magic (5 seconds)

Animation could be something along the lines of a blood red aura, eyes turn red, etc - just not something that would require clipping to keep from being animation-locked is fine.

Anywho, probably a stupid idea, but I felt it would be something that would help alleviate a lot of issues for the Dark that have been spoken of here, and wouldn't require too much re-balancing of the other skills we currently have now. Tying it into blood usage would fit thematically, and would be something a dark knight should be able to do. As it stands, I have only used Sole Survivor like once in a dungeon while leveling, and pretty much forget about that skill being on my hot bar most times. replacing it with something like this would be a good way to help any post-60 darks leveling, while still keeping with the lore. I'd also like to see Shadow wall dropped to level 35, and have its recast timer dropped to 2 minutes, to be in line with the other major mitigating skills.

[Chrono_Rising]

I had an idea for a replacement to Sole Survivor, since it's pretty bad at the moment. I'll leave it to those better at theory and number crunching to see if this is OP or not, and it's just a suggestion, so try not to rip my guts out over it



Blood Feast:
Level 62
Cost - 30 Blood
Duration - 5 seconds
Recast - 40 seconds
No stance requirement
Self-only Heal - 20% HP (or an equivalent to a BiS geared HP, could even be a HoT)
Mana Instant - 10% Refresh
Mitigation - 10% Physical and Magic (5 seconds)

Animation could be something along the lines of a blood red aura, eyes turn red, etc - just not something that would require clipping to keep from being animation-locked is fine.

Anywho, probably a stupid idea, but I felt it would be something that would help alleviate a lot of issues for the Dark that have been spoken of here, and wouldn't require too much re-balancing of the other skills we currently have now. Tying it into blood usage would fit thematically, and would be something a dark knight should be able to do. As it stands, I have only used Sole Survivor like once in a dungeon while leveling, and pretty much forget about that skill being on my hot bar most times. replacing it with something like this would be a good way to help any post-60 darks leveling, while still keeping with the lore. I'd also like to see Shadow wall dropped to level 35, and have its recast timer dropped to 2 minutes, to be in line with the other major mitigating skills.

I think it is better than what we have currently. Personally I would like this to be something of a party wide utility, same effect but for everyone hitting the enemy, but I think this would help either way.

[Lyth]

[...]

There are a number of areas in which DRK has had a strict disadvantage compared to the other two tanks that have been carried over from HW. Last expansion, you wouldn't have heard much more than grumbling about them. There are two reasons for this. First, most people recognised DRK as an advanced difficulty tank. You generally don't learn how to tank on it. We expected it to be difficult and punishing. It was a point of pride to play at the double the APM of any another tank (and generally higher than most dps, excepting NIN), on a job with more complex resource management, and still slightly outperform your co-tank by playing at 10 percentiles higher. Second, DRK was close enough in performance to WAR that you could overcome any intrinsic job disadvantages that you faced through skill alone.

When people look at the numbers in SB, they tend to focus almost exclusively at the uppermost percentiles. Having tabulated all the percentile data at multiple time points from 4.0-4.1, I can tell you that the gap is definitely more pronounced at lower percentiles. If you lose more potency compared to other tanks every time when you swap into defensive stance, then the solution is to never use Grit. Shirk your way through pulls. Shadewalker your way through add pickups. Maybe you'll get to within 150 dps of a less competent WAR. I haven't really looked at the Shinryu results in detail yet, but it looks worse.

The majority of the playerbase, by definition, is within one standard deviation of the mean. There are a lot of people who are actively trying to tank out of stance, but still have non-zero Grit uptimes. Perhaps you have to pick up adds in V3S, but don't have access to a NIN. Even if you just use Grit on the pickups, you're losing relatively more dps on every one. If you try to DAPS to compensate for having lower enmity modifiers than the other two tanks, you're going to lose relatively more dps there too. You don't have Shield Swipe or Onslaught for free enmity. A WAR in the same situation could just double weave Defiance and Onslaught, throw in Equilibrium for good measure, and have secured enmity for all time without breaking a sweat.

I think the problem exists on several levels. On one hand, you have a few outspoken tanks like Xeno pushing the idea that DRK is "braindead easy", despite having given up on playing the job, and the general playerbase has bought into it, hook, line, and sinker. On the other hand, it's more punishing to optimise (and when you actually look at the math, it's hands down more complex) than it was in Heavensward, but offers you far, far less reward for it. So a lot of weaknesses that we were previously willing to overlook or overcome because "hey, DRK is supposed to be hard" are unacceptable now. Why put in the extra effort for no reward, be it either in terms of performance or personal satisfaction?

I suppose one thing that adds fuel to the fire is that we put up with Grit double taxing you in GCD cost and MP cost for over two years. Because hey, DRK is supposed to be hard. You didn't save up enough MP for Grit? You're locked out. Slap on the wrist, don't do it next time. At the start of SB, the devs specifically identified stance swaps as being one area where WAR was significantly more versatile. So they imposed a cost. In three weeks, the playerbase decided that it was unacceptable and got rid of it. But then, why on earth did we put up with the cost on Grit for two years? A lot of us were baffled: we could ask for this?

Balance is absolutely dependent on player perception. There are situations in which players will play a job which is mathematically at a disadvantage as long as it's fun to play and they are valued for the extra effort that they put in. DRK was at a relative disadvantage to WAR even in HW. It became a challenge (and part of the fun) to outplay them in spite of that. But there's a tipping point. And I think we finally may have passed it.

[Clink]

One thing that I think they should do is move dark arts to the Traits section of the job. Yes its a cool looking skill but that's all it is basically. I understand it gives drk abilities on certian actions while boosting some potencies but those are so few and very inbetween. I think it would make sense to have it be a trait similar to how rouge/ninja poisons work. I can't for say anything because I've only got the job to 60 in Potd outside its only 35 and yes I admit I am a newb drk but its just something that felt off to me even in Potd. again this is just my opinion. its just a thought.

[Mycow8me]

One thing that I think they should do is move dark arts to the Traits section of the job. Yes its a cool looking skill but that's all it is basically. I understand it gives drk abilities on certian actions while boosting some potencies but those are so few and very inbetween. I think it would make sense to have it be a trait similar to how rouge/ninja poisons work. I can't for say anything because I've only got the job to 60 in Potd outside its only 35 and yes I admit I am a newb drk but its just something that felt off to me even in Potd. again this is just my opinion. its just a thought.

Sometimes I wonder if dark arts should be incorporated into darkside some how since its a requiring skill anyway and darkside is a once and done skill. Then I realize I enjoy the power boosting play style and if this ever happened it wouldn't really play any different from a warrior having to manage mp consumption unless using different skills that do different things is all that matters. Conundrum.

Blood weapon exhausts the weaving aspect of this class though but I'm guessing some people enjoy the rush it brings. There's been a few suggestions, even to make dark arts a 5 second buff just to alleviate some weaving but how would you balance being able to get 2 gcds off from a single dark arts without raising its mp cost or giving it a delay causing drks to sit on full mp. It would create other issues for things like dark mind timings or abyssal drain spam.