On toxicity in forums

[NolLacnala]

And to my blacklist you go.

See how easy it is?

[KalinOrthos]

And to my blacklist you go.

See how easy it is?

Did you ever think that maybe the reason why you got banned wasn't the fact that you told someone they were going to get votekicked for their abuse? Miste is right, words have power, and this idea that you can say whatever you want without consequence to yourself or others is misguided at best, dangerous at worst.

[Miste]

And to my blacklist you go.

See how easy it is?

Blacklist is a good tool yes, but it still doesn't stop the initial abuse before the blacklist happens.

I mean...you meant to point out blacklist is a solution right? You didn't actually blacklist me for just pointing out that that adage is useless did you? O.o

[Kacho_Nacho]

*snippers*

You didn't actually blacklist me for just pointing out that that adage is useless did you? O.o

*laughs*

Miste, if she blacklisted you, she won't see your question.

Some folks say it's the power of being anonymous and that people act toxic because there is little or no consequences for being nasty. Perhaps, but I think the whole toxicity issue arises because, on the 'net, there's the monitor in the way.

Individuals register as less real online. They don't immediately register as people. They are words and avatars.

So, less empathy and compassion is shown. Whereas, if the individuals were in the same room, there would be less negative comments made.

[Tsunenori]

In general I've found that the "suck it up" and "thicker skin" types are the ones with the thinnest skin. A little empathy and compassion never hurt anyone, and part of growing is realizing that what you say and do to other people has a real effect. Nobody's perfect, and we'll all have days where we're snippy with someone because of what's going on with us, but what's important is trying your best to control it and defuse a situation if one arises.

As far as forums themselves, the only way to discourage the kind of hostile and low effort arguments we're thinking about is heavy moderation. Communities won't police themselves, and toxic people corrupt those around them by driving away reasonable people who are discouraged by the vitriol, and encouraging those that remain to play at the same level. Of course, heavy moderation brings its own set of problems. I always hear people say you'll get banned easily on these forums, but I've taken some hard stances over the past few years on controversial topics and I haven't seen a ban once. I think what's most important is, if you're going to make a strong statement, to make it in good faith and with a clear contribution to the discussion as opposed to flame bait or drive-by posting.

[micropanther7]

In general I've found that the "suck it up" and "thicker skin" types are the ones with the thinnest skin. A little empathy and compassion never hurt anyone, and part of growing is realizing that what you say and do to other people has a real effect. Nobody's perfect, and we'll all have days where we're snippy with someone because of what's going on with us, but what's important is trying your best to control it and defuse a situation if one arises.

As far as forums themselves, the only way to discourage the kind of hostile and low effort arguments we're thinking about is heavy moderation. Communities won't police themselves, and toxic people corrupt those around them by driving away reasonable people who are discouraged by the vitriol, and encouraging those that remain to play at the same level. Of course, heavy moderation brings its own set of problems. I always hear people say you'll get banned easily on these forums, but I've taken some hard stances over the past few years on controversial topics and I haven't seen a ban once. I think what's most important is, if you're going to make a strong statement, to make it in good faith and with a clear contribution to the discussion as opposed to flame bait or drive-by posting.

I agree with the heavy moderation point,the problem is the moderation isn't nowhere near enough on most forums these days. Or the mods aren't visible at all, like here for instance, the only time anyone gets a ban hammer/temporary ban is if you swear (which I understand why they do that, I'm not arguing with that). I used to be a mod for ChickClick (sister site to IGN, got shut down in 2002, had huge forums!) where you'd have one or two mods in each subforum lol, that was heavy moderation for you Any trolling/baiting/flaming and your butt would be out of there Most forums nowadays seem pretty much like a free-for-all, especially gaming forums :P

With that being said, I personally feel that these forums are the best gaming forums I've been on, without heavy moderation that says a lot for our community as a whole.

[Tsunenori]

snip

I know you were responding to Miste but I saw some of my language in your post so I wanted to address some of this. Intent is key, right? "Thicker Skin" or "Sticks and Stones" as statements have PR problems, because in my (granted, anecdotal) experience I most often see them being co-opted by jerks who use them as a shield to hide behind after they've said something offensive. I don't think anyone would reasonably say you should take every anonymous comment to heart, because you just can't live that way. We're not made for it.

But I'd also make the point that what is one person's extreme is not another's. Even a benign statement can be the straw that break's the camel's back, and all the armor in the world isn't impervious to cracks, tears, and whatever else. The opposition to "sticks and stones" I think comes from a place of understanding that you never quite know what someone's condition is and it's better to be aware that even off-hand or innocuous comments can have big impacts. By the same token, you shouldn't walk on eggshells all the time either or avoid giving criticism just because you might upset someone. We can't live that way either.

Personally I always try to temper my language and see if my tone comes across harshly when typing since it's easy to misconstrue things without a voice to give you that guidance.

I don't think there's any objective best way, and I don't think having a "sticks and stones" approach makes someone a bad person. I think it's more about recognizing that the hard knock approach has often been used to justify pretty harsh and insensitive behavior, and making sure that you aren't being that person yourself. You're right that part of growing is also recognizing what you should and shouldn't let get to you. Kacho's also right about monitors not being very good substitutes for people, on top of text not being a good substitute for body language and tone of voice.

Sidenote: all of this is why PR people get paid a lot of money. Communication is hard, especially on the internet.

[MoroMurasaki]

Sidenote: all of this is why PR people get paid a lot of money. Communication is hard, especially on the internet.

I appreciate your response!


There is nothing in there that I disagree with overall, I think that this median approach is generally superior in both reaching a wider group of people and not being overlooked.

My main isue is really not any of the ideas you present here, I simply interperet 'sticks and stones' to mean 'words are not violence, if you take issue with someone's harsh language first appreciate that they are using language to express themselves instead of violence'. I understand that this is not really an issue on the internet as words often are the most hurtful weapons we can use on each other. I really just have a problem with dismissing 'sticks and stones' out of hand. It is (to me) an important lesson to remember in terms of everyday life.

I completely agree that communication is particularly hard when all you have to represent your ideas is text. I work managing operations for a major North American retailer and often communicate important directives in plain text to large groups of people. I don't have the luxury of being able to tack on "loljk" or an emoji to most of my correspondance. I also think that my job might contribute to the brusque/aggressive way many of my posts here are taken but that's a discussion for another time.

Either way just wanted to say I totally understand where you're coming from here. While I may not agree with exactly how you impliment your communication style I do think it has value and works for many people.

[Zarabeth]

Unfortunately people behave terribly on the internet. Anonymity seems to bring the very worst out in a lot of people. The constant negativity in this forum is sad but I've seen worse. Also, it does no good to speak up against the negativity. You will just get shouted down by those who enjoy the hate.

[Theodric]

I tend to prefer the middle ground, honestly. Some posters do need 'thicker skin' and other posters need to take a step back and tone down their aggression from time to time.

The posters who are truly worthy of being taken seriously will be fairly 'middle of the road' and will be capable of agreeing to disagree.